the Golden Gain Ratio
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 2nd May 2013, 10:07 AM #41 nakamoomin   diyAudio Member   Join Date: Jun 2009 Where is the golden ratio? To take this just a tiny bit seriously: Hi Stee, I fail to see the golden ratio in your proposition. "dB" is a logarithmic system (as someone pointed out) so linear mathematics aren't quite applicable. 40 dB = 10 000 24 dB = 256 ergo: 40 dB / 24 dB = 39,0625 (which incidentally is equal to 16 dB) Yes, you see when you divide logarithmic functions you simply subtract the denominator from the numerator. Easy as pie! However, you can not divide them with each other (well, I suppose you could, but it will give you no meaningful answer).. I don't recall either 39-something or 16 to be even close to the golden ratio.. By the way, 40/24 is EXACTLY 5/3 which (in my eyes) is a bit more elegantly written (always use primes if you can) but a VERY coarse approximation of Phi (which is the greek letter associated with the golden ratio). An Italian guy named Leonardo Pisano Bigollo (aka "Leonardo of Pisa" or "Fibonacci") showed this back in 1202, You may have heard of him If I understand you correctly, you are trying to find a relation within amplifier construction that correlates to Phi. I cannot see it, so please explain how you find the golden ratio in the numbers you have provided. If I have misunderstood something, please enlighten me.
SY
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Quote:
 Originally Posted by nakamoomin However, you can not divide them with each other (well, I suppose you could, but it will give you no meaningful answer)..
Exponentiation.
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Stee
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Location: milan
very nice

an educated person
very smart
and also strict

congratulations: Mimetico:
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 2nd May 2013, 02:07 PM #44 Bonsai   Account disabled at member's request   Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Europe 40 dB = 10 000 24 dB = 256 Really?
 2nd May 2013, 04:17 PM #45 nakamoomin   diyAudio Member   Join Date: Jun 2009 Hmm. That's true, I suppose exponential ratios are as good as any. Sent from my GT-N7100 using Tapatalk 2
JMFahey
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Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Buenos Aires - Argentina
Quote:
 Originally Posted by Bonsai 40 dB = 10 000 24 dB = 256 Really?
Really.

It's expressing Power ratios.

As in: to make a speaker sound 40 dB louder, you need to multiply applied power by 10000X .

EDIT: so if we are analyzing the "Ratio" , it means 10000/256=39.0625 .... far from the "Golden Ratio"

And even if we were analyzing Voltage ratio, it would be 100/16=6.25 ... still very far from the classic Artistic Golden Ratio .

Which one is chosen does not matter much, anyway, as far as *none* even resembles Stee's idea.

Last edited by JMFahey; 2nd May 2013 at 06:04 PM. Reason: Putting things in perspective

 6th May 2013, 01:30 PM #47 lcsaszar   diyAudio Member   Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: Budapest, Hungary Stee, The golden ratio is based on the ratios found in the nature (like the proportions of human body), and this is the reason we find it pleasant. Remember that an amplifier's internal construction can not be directly perceived, so adhering to the golden ratio as gain ratio does not make sense. Of course you can make an amplifier with "golden" geometric ratios of its front panel, and it will look aesthetically pleasant... Not to mention that (as others also pointed out) the gain is measured logarithmically, and the golden ratio is a linear relation... For example: Zero dB amplification is an unity gain, frequently used but you can not relate it to the golden ratio. On the other hand, you can play with the numbers as you like, and it still won't sound "golden", because there are so many other factors.
Stee
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Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: milan

the gain ratio set
1:100 works very well
I'm listening for months

the novelty lies in overcoming the open-loop gain
is this simplicity that you will lose all
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hpeter
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Join Date: Feb 2013
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Quote:
 Originally Posted by Bonsai 40 dB = 10 000 24 dB = 256 Really?
if he talks about power ratio it is ok, but should be
24dB - 251,2
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 6th May 2013, 07:32 PM #50 nakamoomin   diyAudio Member   Join Date: Jun 2009 Yes, I rounded the numbers after the 3dB=2 rule of thumb.. Thanks for correcting it. Sent from my GT-N7100 using Tapatalk 2

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