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Old 13th January 2013, 02:08 AM   #21
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I agree Vostro,Twice as loud is very loud
Serten and other Friends, you are right 10db is 2ce loud but it is highly dependent on frequency too.
Dmills is right on the money, The unit of apparent loudness Lapp is the Phon
nkolisnyk, i always thought log antilog, integration was man made math hell for students. Didnt know nature runs a lot of things on log, antilog, integration

I came across this amazing 32 page research about human ears
http://courses.physics.illinois.edu/...6POM_Lect5.pdf

Here are some facts for those who don't wanna read whole research paper or want to avoid the graphic ear images
Here is the human ear loudness equation nature decided to use
Click the image to open in full size.

Human ear loudness curve
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Page 18 and 30 ear sensitivity changes with age. As you grow old you need more tweeters(high freq.) not subs. Very different situation for women.
Click the image to open in full size.

Page 19 The Range of Human Hearing: Sound Intensity, Sound Intensity Level vs. Frequency:

Page 22 Relationship between Apparent/Perceived Loudness Level

Page 23 The Just Noticeable Difference (JND, in dB) in our human hearing is JND ΔLp ∼0.5 dB. Changes with age again n freq

Lastly i think all ours ears are different and i think everyone hears the same music a little differently.
After reading this paper I wont be surprised if Dogs hear mozart as white noise. lol
Will read that article some other day. Its way too much info

Last edited by Amit_112dB; 13th January 2013 at 02:36 AM.
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Old 13th January 2013, 02:53 AM   #22
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post images again incase they dont work for you-

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photo sharing sites

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Old 13th January 2013, 03:25 AM   #23
Simon B is offline Simon B  United Kingdom
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Surely how many decibels (or phons) it takes to make something "twice as loud" depends very much on how loud it is to begin with?

So 20dB SPL might reasonably be described as "twice as loud" as 10dB SPL, whereas 100dB isn't nearly as convincingly twice as loud as 90dB....a logarithmic scale upon a logarithmic scale....

But spl meters are cheap as chips nowadays, so you could always get one and try it out, see how many dBs sounds like twice as loud to you for various volumes, frequencies, program materials etc. If you do, let us know your findings, I'd be interested to hear them.

Prof Steven Errede, one of whose papers is mentioned earlier, has the notes for his course in "Acoustical Physics of Music" available online, there's an index at:

UIUC Physics 406 Lecture Notes
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Old 13th January 2013, 03:45 AM   #24
cotdt is offline cotdt  United States
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I see that people need some treble boost as older, especially males!

People age 65 lose at least 6dB hearing at all frequencies, 40dB (!) hearing at higher frequencies! This means older people need an amp with 4x the wattage.

Last edited by cotdt; 13th January 2013 at 03:47 AM.
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Old 13th January 2013, 03:59 AM   #25
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Quote:
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I see that people need some treble boost as older, especially males!

People age 65 lose at least 6dB hearing at all frequencies, 40dB (!) hearing at higher frequencies! This means older people need an amp with 4x the wattage.
Not necessarily...if we use our hifi system to reproduce what we hear at the concert hall the loss is built into our perception of the live event and would not need to be compensated for by the reproduction chain.
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Old 13th January 2013, 04:29 AM   #26
cotdt is offline cotdt  United States
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kevinahcc20 View Post
Not necessarily...if we use our hifi system to reproduce what we hear at the concert hall the loss is built into our perception of the live event and would not need to be compensated for by the reproduction chain.
And what if you listened to the concert when you were 20 years old, fell in love with the music, and now you are 65 years old, and you listen to the reproduction of said music? The reproduction would sound vastly different from the music you fell in love with when you were young.
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Old 13th January 2013, 04:40 AM   #27
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And what if you listened to the concert when you were 20 years old, fell in love with the music, and now you are 65 years old, and you listen to the reproduction of said music? The reproduction would sound vastly different from the music you fell in love with when you were young.
Except the brain seems to be very good at filling in the missing bits so long as the beat and rhythm are still able to be heard well.

But getting old and going deaf sucks, and I can't wait for Bionic ears; which still seem to be at least a decade away even with all the money being paid into research. As far as power goes when you get to Bi and Tri-amping you seem to be able to get away with slightly less over-all power Why is that??
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Old 13th January 2013, 04:55 AM   #28
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Amit:

Why not just decide for yourself about decibels and "twice as loud"? It's easy to do.


First, download freeware SweepGen-I've been using it for years.

Then go to the following site:
Audio Tools - from David Taylor, Edinburgh

Then, in the middle of the page, (you might have to scroll down), click on
"Download SweepGen V3.5.6".

This freeware allows you to select any frequency between 20-20K Hz, and gives you decibel slider so you can tell how many decibels you are going up and down.

Just be sure the "L+R" box is checked. Then select any mid or high frequency you like, and move the volume up and down 3 db or 10 db at your choosing.

This way, you can hear first-hand how many decibels it takes to sound "twice as loud".
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Old 13th January 2013, 05:32 AM   #29
balerit is offline balerit  South Africa
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With regards to 2. and 3. under powered amps will blow tweeters in no time flat. An old saying: underpowered amps blow tweeters overpowered ones rattle woofers. Usually one plays underpowered amplifiers full bore to get decent sound volume which results in clipping and this blows the tweeter (how many people blow their car's tweeters?). With overpowered amps your speaker will distort long before it blows the voice coil and unless you are an idiot and play your speakers continuously while distorting (or don't know the difference) then they will fry.
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Old 13th January 2013, 05:55 AM   #30
cotdt is offline cotdt  United States
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Quote:
Originally Posted by balerit View Post
With regards to 2. and 3. under powered amps will blow tweeters in no time flat. An old saying: underpowered amps blow tweeters overpowered ones rattle woofers. Usually one plays underpowered amplifiers full bore to get decent sound volume which results in clipping and this blows the tweeter (how many people blow their car's tweeters?). With overpowered amps your speaker will distort long before it blows the voice coil and unless you are an idiot and play your speakers continuously while distorting (or don't know the difference) then they will fry.
In the PA world, they use amps with twice the power handling of the speaker to avoid this. In the hifi world, whose ears are going to take heavy clipping continuously long enough to blow a tweeter? Today's tweeters could also handle more power than in the past.
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