The current price of the amp and PS from 47 Labs is $3,300. Check Audiogon how much they are selling used.
http://cgi.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/cl.pl?ampstran&1072060041&class&3&4&
http://cgi.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/cl.pl?ampstran&1072060041&class&3&4&
My 2 cents worth
I have just a few general comments on my experiences with gainclones.
The ones I have built sound good, but not exceptional, but I've only built minimalist ones without exotic parts. IMHO mine don't sound as good as say, my AKSA amp.
I've also had the opportunity to listen to Joe Rasmussen's JLTi (tube buffered, filtered, inverted GC) and it does sound very good. I didn't have the opportunity to do direct comparisons but I can say his JTLi sounds superior to my basic GCs.
So I have to believe that some have made GCs that sound good and others have made them that sound very good or exceptional.
I have just a few general comments on my experiences with gainclones.
The ones I have built sound good, but not exceptional, but I've only built minimalist ones without exotic parts. IMHO mine don't sound as good as say, my AKSA amp.
I've also had the opportunity to listen to Joe Rasmussen's JLTi (tube buffered, filtered, inverted GC) and it does sound very good. I didn't have the opportunity to do direct comparisons but I can say his JTLi sounds superior to my basic GCs.
So I have to believe that some have made GCs that sound good and others have made them that sound very good or exceptional.
This chip has its place and it may well be in the systems of some aficionados. I don't know, I am far from that. I built one to use with my speaker testing rig and that's the only one. It sounds better than my mass market stuff, but that's not saying much.
I have accumulated many of the parts for a Class A amp of obvious lineage, whenever the group buys get in line. I am pursuing this as, so far, I have liked the factory Pass amps and the DIY Pass amps I have heard thus far. There was a reality that the other high dollar amps didn't seem to have. It could have been psychology, but I am motivated to try one for myself.
I think the generically named GC amp does indeed have its place. If the number of radical changes Peter and others have reported are indeed real, it seems to be an unstable platform at best, but in the right situation could be excellent. I wish I had the energy to duplicate their efforts.
At times, I have viewed this forum as a place of innovation and at other times a place of snake oil sales. The GC seems to be a center for one of these pursuits, you judge which one.
Without question, the GC based concept brings decent DIY to the hands of about anyone and possibly the pinnacle to artisans. Other designs exist, some people love tubes and I'd love to hear a real horn design, just for reference. . .
Thanks to all that contribute without throwing mud at an issue that is worthy of discussion, in my opinion.
Sandy.
I have accumulated many of the parts for a Class A amp of obvious lineage, whenever the group buys get in line. I am pursuing this as, so far, I have liked the factory Pass amps and the DIY Pass amps I have heard thus far. There was a reality that the other high dollar amps didn't seem to have. It could have been psychology, but I am motivated to try one for myself.
I think the generically named GC amp does indeed have its place. If the number of radical changes Peter and others have reported are indeed real, it seems to be an unstable platform at best, but in the right situation could be excellent. I wish I had the energy to duplicate their efforts.
At times, I have viewed this forum as a place of innovation and at other times a place of snake oil sales. The GC seems to be a center for one of these pursuits, you judge which one.
Without question, the GC based concept brings decent DIY to the hands of about anyone and possibly the pinnacle to artisans. Other designs exist, some people love tubes and I'd love to hear a real horn design, just for reference. . .
Thanks to all that contribute without throwing mud at an issue that is worthy of discussion, in my opinion.
Sandy.
Some years ago there was a turbine powered car racing at indy.No it didnt win but it scared the other engine mfgs half to death.Within 2 months there were restrictions that did not allow the car to be competitive.While the other crews were futzing with the powerplants the turbine crew were fine tuning the chassie and related things.
I kind of look at the GC in the same light.The turbine is there , we are just fine tuning the chassie and other related things.
ron
I kind of look at the GC in the same light.The turbine is there , we are just fine tuning the chassie and other related things.
ron
Kuei Yang Wang:
That's a 950% mark-up... a monumental rip-off, no matter how it sounds or who built it.
Okeydokey, let's split hairs and pick nits... I was being facetious. You say they are $7. Fine. I would still feel seriously miffed to spend $3300 on a 47Lab Gaincard and find a $7 device doing the hard work...
That's a 950% mark-up... a monumental rip-off, no matter how it sounds or who built it.
DrG said:
Since we're splitting hairs, I believe that's closer to 471 times the chip cost or 47000% markup. Of course, that's based on 100% markup being double, 200% being triple, et al.
(I do hope you're not trying to calculate the various voltages and impedances in your discrete circuits, let alone the noise. May I kindly suggest that you consider letting NatSemi do the engineering for you).
Besides, is that any different than $50 of components in a $5000 discrete. Oh wait... that's only 9900% markup... that can't possibly be a rip-off.
What some keep forgetting to calculate (hmmm... there's that math thing again) is that every level of the distribution chain will double, triple or even quadruple the costs from the previous tier. Even if they used sweatshop labour, Sakura is selling their work cheap. Actually, if he is hand-building them, he is using sweatshop labour..his own. The only reason the big fabs costs so little (relatively) is that they are big fabs and have billions invested in automation that nearly removes the cost of labour. And, I won't even get into the costs of shipping stuff that is heavy and requires massive boxes of mostly foam protection.
Now, it's okay to admit you just won't pay the money it takes to listen to boutique audio equipment, but to keep whining about the huge markups, well, that's just unnecessary whining. Did you ever buy a car with an option in it? Ever ask yourself how much the crappy 6-speaker stereo actually costs, and how much you got ripped off for having it installed. How about the cost of a good dinner at a fancy restaurant? I'll bet the "actual" food costs pennies. Maybe you've complained about the cost of popcorn at the movies or even the cost for riding a billion dollar subway system. Wait... how about the cost of music. Forget CD's... burn, baby, burn....
But of course not. Most of us on this forum would would gladly pay the $20 cost of a CD that costs pennies to manufacture and happily refuse a free MP3 file.
And just to keep it on topic.... Solid Snake: Many bi-amp active monitors use some kind of chip amp, often NS chips. Go to the nearest pro studio shop and demo them - they will surprise you for their price. Even the ones that cost less than $2000/pair are very accurate. So far, the only thing better that I've heard is a Bryston and they have a really steep entry cost and an ultra-complex schematic (complete with discrete opamps!).
ensen.CD $0.05 at factory
Britney Spears $10,000,000
FedEx $5 (truck)
Watching specific forum members faces as I play it on an LM3886 amp: Absolutely priceless.
(oops, I did it again)
Solid Snake said:As far as I know, gainclones are just chip amps right? Why are they so popular compared to other chip amps or discrete component designs. Why would I want to build a gainclone more than any other design?
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I find this thread quite interesting.
Jean-Paul, why are you objecting as you objected to my thread asking Peter Daniel and others about them?
purplepeople:
So let me summarize: you say (correctly) that our capitalist, hierarchical retail system adds cost at every tier. And using this observation you reason that 47Labs are a-ok whaking a $3300 price on the Gaincard. Well then why would you waste your time building one when you have justified to yourself virtually any asking price for anything.
Your method is probably more correct and sounds actually worse... mine should read 2^9.5 mark-up...
I've listened to the results of NatSemi's calculations and I agree they're mathematically outstanding. The problem is that sonically they're only average. So, whatever I'm doing wrong sounds better to me and I'm ok with that.
Yes. I bought a BMW M3 with satellite navigation, if you MUST know...
Yes, how about that indeed. With the emphasis on good... The problem I have is the cost of a crappy dinner at a fancy restaurant.
So let me summarize: you say (correctly) that our capitalist, hierarchical retail system adds cost at every tier. And using this observation you reason that 47Labs are a-ok whaking a $3300 price on the Gaincard. Well then why would you waste your time building one when you have justified to yourself virtually any asking price for anything.
DrG,
You are not complaining about the price of your BMW. Don't you feel ripped-off when driving it. If you ask ME (that's the key word here) there are better performing more reliable and less expensive cars than yours. My point, people can justify anything and to tell them what they should like or not (being a car or the sound of an amp) is a nonsense. So, how about a productive discussion on HOW they differ and WHY people prefer one to the other rather than trying to put down one or the other approaches to amp building or sound preferences.
Greg
You are not complaining about the price of your BMW. Don't you feel ripped-off when driving it. If you ask ME (that's the key word here) there are better performing more reliable and less expensive cars than yours. My point, people can justify anything and to tell them what they should like or not (being a car or the sound of an amp) is a nonsense. So, how about a productive discussion on HOW they differ and WHY people prefer one to the other rather than trying to put down one or the other approaches to amp building or sound preferences.
Greg
There's no justification for blowing that much money on a chip amp. If I were stupid, I still wouldn't pay $200 for it. Maybe I should start selling my amps on eBay, all I need is a fancy looking chassis to hide the $2 output transistors and radioshack transformers . In my opinion it's impossible to make a "trademark" design around a chip, since there is a very limited number of ways to hook it up. Perhaps you can play with feedback networks but that's about it. What makes the gainclone so different from any other amp based on this chip? Not much I'm guessing. Well that's just me, I'm a discrete component guy.
. In my opinion it's impossible to make a "trademark" design around a chip, since there is a very limited number of ways to hook it up. Perhaps you can play with feedback networks but that's about it. What makes the gainclone so different from any other amp based on this chip? Not much I'm guessing. Well that's just me, I'm a discrete component guy.Solid Snake said:There's no justification for blowing that much money on a chip amp. If I were stupid, I still wouldn't pay $200 for it. Maybe I should start selling my amps on eBay, all I need is a fancy looking chassis to hide the $2 output transistors and radioshack transformers
Yes there is: You make ENOUGH $$$, like the sound of it and the way it looks.
I think what makes different amps different would be mainly the way they sound (if you disregard the packaging). By the way I also wouldn't buy the original amp, I'd make one myself. But that's because I don't make enough $$$ to spend it that way. Mind you I wouldn't buy BMW (I like the WRX STi) but that doesn't make it a bad car.
DrG said:
I readily admit that I can't currently pay that kind of money for any amplifier, but for those that do, I also won't begrudge them the purchase. When I have that much $$$$ to blow on audio equipment, you can bet that my personal time is worth more than the cost of the equipment. If IC amps weren't so good, then engineers and golden ears at the studio monitor companies wouldn't be using them. These chips are excellent value for the money. Any amp based on them is also excellent value.
Another part of the cachet of owning hi-end is the look that says my toys are better than your toys. Sakura understands this and charges appropriately for a small beautiful unit that sounds huge. The philosphy inherent in your posts tells me that you would prefer to have the old Motorola "brick" cellphones from the '80s since they use reliable designs with fewer integration. They not only have higher wattage, but are substantial and look impressive. Me, I'll use small modern phone. Less really can be more, if you can look past the machismo factor.
Solid Snake said:
Curious... why ask the question if you already have an answer?
ensen.Chips like 3886, 4780 etc. are maded for commercial using and their main advantage is price, easy using and also " high implementation " of all protections. All this aspect makes this circuits as ideal " target " for DIY and because they are maded by profesionals, many people are surprised by resulting sound quality. Secondary reason of their popularity is it, that many people are afraid by complicated circuits, they can have results in short time and they can't too much think about another ways, what is probably main cause.
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