Hi every one. It's been a long time since I started to read this forum, but it's my first time that I am posting some thing. May be it's that I don't want to ask stupid questions or may be it's some thing else.
I play guitar and modifying guitar effects. I can read schematics, some things I understand and some I don't. Just started to learn electronic engineering in Institute, but It's more than two years now that I'm trying to learn audio stuff trough internet.
Last month I finished my first big project wich is a Guitar tube amp. Marshall JCM 800 50 watt. 2x12ax7 for gain stages, 1x12ax7 for PI, and class AB power section with 2xEL34. Turret Board, USA made transformers, SOZO Polyester Film and Foil caps (Polypropelyne Film and Foil are not good for this kind of an amp).
I have been working on some modulation effect, and during my work I understood how can simple passive or active devises effect the tone. Rules for Hi-fi audio works the same in Guitar world, but big companies do not care about that.
Now I want to build an audio amp for a home use, but I don't know what kind of scheme to use. I have experience with tubes and I know that they cost mutch less then output transformers. I know that jfet 2sk170 sounds better for me than 2sc2240, bc549 and mutch better than 2n3904 in SE mode like Jfet BOZ schematic. I made a version of this circuit because of different Idss of my jfets. Actualy with this circuit I also was comparing different types of caps and FKP type I liked the most. (there were wima MKP, FKP2, Panasonics, Phillips, Orange drops 716)
Can some one say where is the line between Valve and Solid State disigns? I know that poorly made tube amp with cheap trannies and cheap caps can and will sound bad. But how bad?
Lets say it's a low wattage amp like Le mosntre by Jean Hiraga or some low wattage amp from Nelson Pass and some tube kits like OddWatt, Elekit, or other types of tube amps with decent trannies (edcor, hammond). All Class A of course.
Or some thing more powerfull like Aleph 3 and Dynaco ST70.
In order to sound the best, tubes must be pushed hard and that is very loud, but not the Solid State amps. Well not like tubes I mean.
If I want to spend like 300$-500$ on audio amp, what kind is better for a home use?
If there is no such a big differnce will it be wise just to use a Le Monstre scheme and may be some better sounding transistors?
Thanks in advance for your help.
I play guitar and modifying guitar effects. I can read schematics, some things I understand and some I don't. Just started to learn electronic engineering in Institute, but It's more than two years now that I'm trying to learn audio stuff trough internet.
Last month I finished my first big project wich is a Guitar tube amp. Marshall JCM 800 50 watt. 2x12ax7 for gain stages, 1x12ax7 for PI, and class AB power section with 2xEL34. Turret Board, USA made transformers, SOZO Polyester Film and Foil caps (Polypropelyne Film and Foil are not good for this kind of an amp).
I have been working on some modulation effect, and during my work I understood how can simple passive or active devises effect the tone. Rules for Hi-fi audio works the same in Guitar world, but big companies do not care about that.
Now I want to build an audio amp for a home use, but I don't know what kind of scheme to use. I have experience with tubes and I know that they cost mutch less then output transformers. I know that jfet 2sk170 sounds better for me than 2sc2240, bc549 and mutch better than 2n3904 in SE mode like Jfet BOZ schematic. I made a version of this circuit because of different Idss of my jfets. Actualy with this circuit I also was comparing different types of caps and FKP type I liked the most. (there were wima MKP, FKP2, Panasonics, Phillips, Orange drops 716)
Can some one say where is the line between Valve and Solid State disigns? I know that poorly made tube amp with cheap trannies and cheap caps can and will sound bad. But how bad?
Lets say it's a low wattage amp like Le mosntre by Jean Hiraga or some low wattage amp from Nelson Pass and some tube kits like OddWatt, Elekit, or other types of tube amps with decent trannies (edcor, hammond). All Class A of course.
Or some thing more powerfull like Aleph 3 and Dynaco ST70.
In order to sound the best, tubes must be pushed hard and that is very loud, but not the Solid State amps. Well not like tubes I mean.
If I want to spend like 300$-500$ on audio amp, what kind is better for a home use?
If there is no such a big differnce will it be wise just to use a Le Monstre scheme and may be some better sounding transistors?
Thanks in advance for your help.
Hi,
HiFi amplifiers and guitar amplifiers are not the same thing, what works great
in a guitar amplifier will generally sound dismal used for overall reproduction.
However given your propensities I'd suggest building the DoZ :
Death of Zen - A new Class-A power amp
with Capacitance Multiplier Power Supply Filter
and Minimalist Discrete Hi-Fi Preamp
Though for CD the preamp can be fully passive.
rgds, sreten.
HiFi amplifiers and guitar amplifiers are not the same thing, what works great
in a guitar amplifier will generally sound dismal used for overall reproduction.
However given your propensities I'd suggest building the DoZ :
Death of Zen - A new Class-A power amp
with Capacitance Multiplier Power Supply Filter
and Minimalist Discrete Hi-Fi Preamp
Though for CD the preamp can be fully passive.
rgds, sreten.
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I play guitar as well but mostly acoustic. I'm not too much into electric guitar. I have also built home HiFi stereo and have separate acoustic guitar amp (that I mod for more HiFi sound). I have also blended my acoustic guitar / condersor mic setup with home stereo. It can be done. The thing with home HiFi for live sound use is the dynamic range IMHO. The speakers for live sound use can handle more power and sudden surge in power. I believe they have larger XMAX. If I'm in a low/med volume, the home HiFi is perfectly fine with live sound use.
But in general, I separate my home stereo use from live sound use.
If you are into class A, I recommend JLH dual rails design. I built it, I like it and I'm using it now. It is not a tube amp, but the sound is warm, especially female vocals show the tube like warm sound. There is a thread here of couple of hundred pages of discussion on this design.
Hope this helps.
But in general, I separate my home stereo use from live sound use.
If you are into class A, I recommend JLH dual rails design. I built it, I like it and I'm using it now. It is not a tube amp, but the sound is warm, especially female vocals show the tube like warm sound. There is a thread here of couple of hundred pages of discussion on this design.
Hope this helps.
Whatever you do, I would recommend purchasing a premade pcb with a corresponding BoM and schematic (and hopefully support from the designer lol). I went this route when I built my brother Ian Thompson-Bell's improved headphone amplifier. Once you get the BoM, schematic, and pcb, and the design is good, you will be well on your way towards constructing a nice, reliable amp.
If just purchasing an amplifier, I would always go with a "professional" model. Most include balanced inputs (a life saver) and are generally more reliable than HiFi stuff. Another plus is that many are far cheaper than their HiFi cousins for the same power output.
If just purchasing an amplifier, I would always go with a "professional" model. Most include balanced inputs (a life saver) and are generally more reliable than HiFi stuff. Another plus is that many are far cheaper than their HiFi cousins for the same power output.
Thanks for the replies guys.
Abut Hi-fi audio and Guitar audio:
I know that "THD" it's not what people are talking about in guitar amps forums, but those two worlds not so different. Designs of the amps are not the same, but the aproach is. Same endless topics about sound of caps and resistors in different places, must be output transformer made with paper between the layers of copper coils ore not. I've seen people using Hovland caps in their builds, there are even Class A amps that people love, SE amps... Just because some amps made for distortion it does not mean that rules are completely different. Good sound is always expencive.
Death of Zen:
I know that site and I saw that schematic too, but I have matched 2sk170/sk74 gr 8 pairs, and 2sk170/sk74 BL 2 pairs and I wanted to use those too. That's the reason why I was looking to Le Monstre by Hiraga schematic and not the JLH (I was thinking about this one too but...). If there is a good pre with those transistors, it will be even better... I hear that Mosfets in power section sound better then BJT. Some say that Fets good for a subwoofer and BJT better for the Amp.
I have 3 way 8 ohm speakers with passive crossover, that I want to revive, so that what I will use.
I have planty of copper clad boards from kinsten and enough of ferric chloride, so I think that a can etch the PCB.
Now I am reading a Le Mosntre topic... He is a long one...
Abut Hi-fi audio and Guitar audio:
I know that "THD" it's not what people are talking about in guitar amps forums, but those two worlds not so different. Designs of the amps are not the same, but the aproach is. Same endless topics about sound of caps and resistors in different places, must be output transformer made with paper between the layers of copper coils ore not. I've seen people using Hovland caps in their builds, there are even Class A amps that people love, SE amps... Just because some amps made for distortion it does not mean that rules are completely different. Good sound is always expencive.
Death of Zen:
I know that site and I saw that schematic too, but I have matched 2sk170/sk74 gr 8 pairs, and 2sk170/sk74 BL 2 pairs and I wanted to use those too. That's the reason why I was looking to Le Monstre by Hiraga schematic and not the JLH (I was thinking about this one too but...). If there is a good pre with those transistors, it will be even better... I hear that Mosfets in power section sound better then BJT. Some say that Fets good for a subwoofer and BJT better for the Amp.
I have 3 way 8 ohm speakers with passive crossover, that I want to revive, so that what I will use.
I have planty of copper clad boards from kinsten and enough of ferric chloride, so I think that a can etch the PCB.
Now I am reading a Le Mosntre topic... He is a long one...
For a stereo power amp you could consider a design by John Linsley Hood who designed many audio amps etc. The one I liked was his Mosfet design from many years ago. Other people on here may have more information and there may well be some discussions in this forum too.
I built his Hart 1400 preamp many years ago to replace a Quad 33 and this is still working fine.
You could buy an old Quad 405/606 power amp and refurb it as an option to complete new build.
Happy soldering.
I built his Hart 1400 preamp many years ago to replace a Quad 33 and this is still working fine.
You could buy an old Quad 405/606 power amp and refurb it as an option to complete new build.
Happy soldering.
I see death of Zen is a 10W class A amp. Fine if you mainly listen to strumma strumma singer songwriters on acoustic guitar with a fairly efficient speaker. Myself, I would only use that for a headphone amp. With 101 db@1W speakers, I listen at an average level of 1.5 v pp. Doubling voltage for each 10 db of dynamic range (LP's have 55 db of dynamic range) gets 32Vavg. So my dynakit ST70 tube amp at 17.5 V into 8 ohms is not quite enough, which is about what it sounds like on full orchestral music. I updated the ST70 last year with new e-caps, new output tubes, and checked the rectifier tube for not much sag at full power (17.5v @8 ohm), so it is up to original as far as I can tell. With the 7199 driver boards updated with new coupler caps, metal film >100k resistors etc, the 1% harmonic distortion is audible on piano. Much better sounding are my BJT amps, the ST120 updated with the djoffe bias circuit, and the CS800s Peavey amp.
I haven't run into any FET amps, other than nasty car amps driving by. Having blown a few irreplaceable tweeters over the years with the allegedly totally tame ST70, I'm sensitive to the tendency of symmetric direct coupled transistor amps to blow up speakers if the outputs get shorted. The ST120 has speaker coupler caps, the CS800s has speaker monitor transformers and a microprocessor to pull the speaker relays. The one FET amp that has intrigued me is the MJR-7 which has a failure resistant capacitor in the speaker path. MJR-7 Mosfet Power Amplifier. If I was to come up with some FET's at less than $8 a piece, I'd try that one. The FETs he specifies are $10 each in the US, and that is a TO3 part with the same number and a different manufacturer as the TO247 parts he is buying in Europe.
I haven't run into any FET amps, other than nasty car amps driving by. Having blown a few irreplaceable tweeters over the years with the allegedly totally tame ST70, I'm sensitive to the tendency of symmetric direct coupled transistor amps to blow up speakers if the outputs get shorted. The ST120 has speaker coupler caps, the CS800s has speaker monitor transformers and a microprocessor to pull the speaker relays. The one FET amp that has intrigued me is the MJR-7 which has a failure resistant capacitor in the speaker path. MJR-7 Mosfet Power Amplifier. If I was to come up with some FET's at less than $8 a piece, I'd try that one. The FETs he specifies are $10 each in the US, and that is a TO3 part with the same number and a different manufacturer as the TO247 parts he is buying in Europe.
Friend of mine that lives in canada has same st70 amp, but his is completely stock, ecxept for the tubes of course. He uses some quality DAC than peamp that is a jadis jp200 copy and st70, and he says that this is amp can't be beaten by SS amp. In my opinion that the only thing that I can be sure of is that his amp is working, but how good this amp works If you got nothing compare to? Right?
I am not speaking about valve amps with tamura transformers, some NOS tubes, and super expencive silver paper and oil caps with silver wires just in case if Vampires or werewolves will try to attak your amp... These are legends and just have to sound good!
Same class amps with same price tag. What is better?
From the replies I see, Solid State are on the wining side, and they cost less...
I am not speaking about valve amps with tamura transformers, some NOS tubes, and super expencive silver paper and oil caps with silver wires just in case if Vampires or werewolves will try to attak your amp... These are legends and just have to sound good!
Same class amps with same price tag. What is better?
From the replies I see, Solid State are on the wining side, and they cost less...
This is a link to the John Linsley Hood amp I mentioned earlier
A Paul Kemble web page - JLH mosfet amplifiers.
A Paul Kemble web page - JLH mosfet amplifiers.
I can't do U-tube videos, this computer isn't fast enough.
My dynakit ST70 is a 1961 build that I bought used in 1970 from the minister builder who was going to Africa to become a missionary. It has the original 7199 driver board, with some plastic film caps. I have a PAS2 tube preamp he built which I had to put some plastic film caps in 2 years ago due to his burning of the wax case on one cap and his turning it so the burned part was down- thus it was the 11th cap I replaced. The plastic film caps make the PAS2 a little bright, requiring turning down the tone controls a little.
I view music reproduction is trying to reproduce the music you can hear in the concert hall. A particular warmth on voice or whatever is not what I am looking for. Some distortions are sweet, but they are distortions, IMHO. In my case, in my 60th year I found a Steinway console piano. Thus I can do listening tests of the real Steinway, versus the ones on recordings. The pianos on recordings have better bass, but the treble is pure Steinway. Coloration by the tubes is not my goal. Sounding like a real piano is my goal. The PAS2+ST70 was great over the years, until tubes became a Soviet only sourced product, but now you can buy tubes again from Slovakia! So the ST70 is back to pretty original. It is good-- but not great. My test records include Beethoven Appasionatta Sonata for the lows, and an RCA dynagroove LP Peter Nero, Young and Warm and Wonderful. On the top octave of RCA's Steinway, you can hear some IM distortion with nearly everything, especially the ST70- but not with the ST120 (djoffe bias modified) amp and not with the CS800s amp (when it is not blowing the breaker because the PS caps are too old). I also try bass drum hits from ZZ Top Afterburner which will sound like boog if time alignment of the speaker is wrong.
These Peavey SP2-XP speakers are the best I've ever owned, and come with a factory frequency response chart +- 3db, and the later SP2-2004 versions come with a harmonic distortion chart plotted 50 hz-14khz. Tell me how golden standard these speakers are that you are listening to all the imperfections of amplifiers with?
As far as amps with DC speaker protection being useless, frankly you can get a great "sound of silence" from a speaker with a blown driver. One where the vendor is bankrupt, and no exact replacement driver is available. As is nearly every speaker manufacturer except Peavey.
My dynakit ST70 is a 1961 build that I bought used in 1970 from the minister builder who was going to Africa to become a missionary. It has the original 7199 driver board, with some plastic film caps. I have a PAS2 tube preamp he built which I had to put some plastic film caps in 2 years ago due to his burning of the wax case on one cap and his turning it so the burned part was down- thus it was the 11th cap I replaced. The plastic film caps make the PAS2 a little bright, requiring turning down the tone controls a little.
I view music reproduction is trying to reproduce the music you can hear in the concert hall. A particular warmth on voice or whatever is not what I am looking for. Some distortions are sweet, but they are distortions, IMHO. In my case, in my 60th year I found a Steinway console piano. Thus I can do listening tests of the real Steinway, versus the ones on recordings. The pianos on recordings have better bass, but the treble is pure Steinway. Coloration by the tubes is not my goal. Sounding like a real piano is my goal. The PAS2+ST70 was great over the years, until tubes became a Soviet only sourced product, but now you can buy tubes again from Slovakia! So the ST70 is back to pretty original. It is good-- but not great. My test records include Beethoven Appasionatta Sonata for the lows, and an RCA dynagroove LP Peter Nero, Young and Warm and Wonderful. On the top octave of RCA's Steinway, you can hear some IM distortion with nearly everything, especially the ST70- but not with the ST120 (djoffe bias modified) amp and not with the CS800s amp (when it is not blowing the breaker because the PS caps are too old). I also try bass drum hits from ZZ Top Afterburner which will sound like boog if time alignment of the speaker is wrong.
These Peavey SP2-XP speakers are the best I've ever owned, and come with a factory frequency response chart +- 3db, and the later SP2-2004 versions come with a harmonic distortion chart plotted 50 hz-14khz. Tell me how golden standard these speakers are that you are listening to all the imperfections of amplifiers with?
As far as amps with DC speaker protection being useless, frankly you can get a great "sound of silence" from a speaker with a blown driver. One where the vendor is bankrupt, and no exact replacement driver is available. As is nearly every speaker manufacturer except Peavey.
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There isn't one, really, but biasing FETs to match tube curves is quite a bit cheaper than using tubes proper. I'd suggest reading up on tube emulation circuits and thinking about which characteristics you want to pull across into a hi-fi amp.
JLH amp is always gets mentioned when you looking for some info about Le monstre by Hiraga, and vice versa. It's a good amp from what I read, and there is a lot of info about building one. I'll take it as an option.
St70:
Yes, that's the amp from your link in youtube. Many pople say that stock output transformers are better then the new ones from ebay let's say. But if they from Tango, Tamura, Hashimoto that's some thing different.
To indianajo:
Actualy there is no golden standart speakers that I listening to, but I have 8 ohm, Sanyo 3 way speakers with westra drivers (from germay) with passive crossover, that I got with Marantz 2225 reciver form 1974 made in japan.
It had some noise problem on the right channel I wanted to repair and to modefy this reciver but at the time I didn't heave enough brains to know were to start and it was just standing in the corner of the room. Then my wife sad to me that if I want to do some thing with, I better to get started, if not - just throw it away. I think you know what happened next and thats the reason why I am here. PC cheap stereo is no good for me now
My expiriense with tubes and Transistors: As I sad before I play guitar, and I had two transistor amps, one tube amp from Carvin, and now I have Marshall clone that I made from the parsts that I ordered.
Carvin had a lot of switching fets in signal chain, active 5 band tone controles (with 4558 IC's) and Active graphic EQ (with same 4558).
This one was modefied by me: changed quality of the caps, different gain stages, Post PI master volume... It was a combo with Carvin USA made 12' speaker. Sound become mutch better to me and other who had listened to it. In that moment I realised that I have to build an Amp.
Marshall have only tubes in it and I like it the most. The circuit is so mutch simplier then carvin.
In the same time I was working on chorus effect that works the best with a clean channel, so basicly it's an analog modulation effect. Builded two of those. One is standard version: 1% metal film resitors, Poly caps and ceramic caps for small values, 5088 - 3904 transistors, 4558 op-amp in signal chain, and the other is with the chainges like: jfet 2sk170GR as a Buffer instead of BJT, Wima FKP2 (Polypropelyne Film and Foil) in signal chain, LM4562 instead of 4558, bc549 transistors in other places. I was working step by step and always compearing them. Caps at the first, then op-amp (used OPA2604, but lm4562 is better to my ears) etc...
In the end these almost identical schemes sounds different. The moded version is so transperent and Musical then other. The original circuit is from early 80's. Amp that I used was marshall clone on clean channel.
If it works here, is there a reason why it won't work in HI-fi audio?
30 or 40 years ago people were using what they could get at that time, and they were happy with the results. Now we have and opportunity to use same shemes, but with new standarts. The technology moves on...
Why not use this? That's what I trying to do...
By the way aren't SED power tubes not good enough? Alot people loves them and they made in Saint Petersburg, Russia!
Some times I proud to be a Russian
St70:
Yes, that's the amp from your link in youtube. Many pople say that stock output transformers are better then the new ones from ebay let's say. But if they from Tango, Tamura, Hashimoto that's some thing different.
To indianajo:
Actualy there is no golden standart speakers that I listening to, but I have 8 ohm, Sanyo 3 way speakers with westra drivers (from germay) with passive crossover, that I got with Marantz 2225 reciver form 1974 made in japan.
It had some noise problem on the right channel I wanted to repair and to modefy this reciver but at the time I didn't heave enough brains to know were to start and it was just standing in the corner of the room. Then my wife sad to me that if I want to do some thing with, I better to get started, if not - just throw it away. I think you know what happened next and thats the reason why I am here. PC cheap stereo is no good for me now
My expiriense with tubes and Transistors: As I sad before I play guitar, and I had two transistor amps, one tube amp from Carvin, and now I have Marshall clone that I made from the parsts that I ordered.
Carvin had a lot of switching fets in signal chain, active 5 band tone controles (with 4558 IC's) and Active graphic EQ (with same 4558).
This one was modefied by me: changed quality of the caps, different gain stages, Post PI master volume... It was a combo with Carvin USA made 12' speaker. Sound become mutch better to me and other who had listened to it. In that moment I realised that I have to build an Amp.
Marshall have only tubes in it and I like it the most. The circuit is so mutch simplier then carvin.
In the same time I was working on chorus effect that works the best with a clean channel, so basicly it's an analog modulation effect. Builded two of those. One is standard version: 1% metal film resitors, Poly caps and ceramic caps for small values, 5088 - 3904 transistors, 4558 op-amp in signal chain, and the other is with the chainges like: jfet 2sk170GR as a Buffer instead of BJT, Wima FKP2 (Polypropelyne Film and Foil) in signal chain, LM4562 instead of 4558, bc549 transistors in other places. I was working step by step and always compearing them. Caps at the first, then op-amp (used OPA2604, but lm4562 is better to my ears) etc...
In the end these almost identical schemes sounds different. The moded version is so transperent and Musical then other. The original circuit is from early 80's. Amp that I used was marshall clone on clean channel.
If it works here, is there a reason why it won't work in HI-fi audio?
30 or 40 years ago people were using what they could get at that time, and they were happy with the results. Now we have and opportunity to use same shemes, but with new standarts. The technology moves on...
Why not use this? That's what I trying to do...
By the way aren't SED power tubes not good enough? Alot people loves them and they made in Saint Petersburg, Russia!
Some times I proud to be a Russian
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