The price is outrageous. Snake oil, "muse" paint.
I read here. "There are fakes around".......As a matter of fact, they are fakes, from the very beginning.
There's a sucker born every minute
I read here. "There are fakes around".......As a matter of fact, they are fakes, from the very beginning.
There's a sucker born every minute
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Quite pricey, indeed, this is why it took me about 6 months to buy those MUSES01.
I was skeptical from the very beginning, this is why I told JRC/NJR dealer if I don't like these MUSES I want to return them in at most 7 days; they agrees, with some conditions: they'll test the OPAMPs to be perfectly operational and ofc no soldered pins allowed. After my first test in my Essence One as I/V converter I realized that these OPAMPs should be a keeper, at least in I/V stage.
One thing's for sure: blind A/B test done by 2 different persons between 2 identical DACs is definitely not snake oil.
Feel free to find my posts from Head-Fi is you really care about.
Thanks for reading,
Raul.
I was skeptical from the very beginning, this is why I told JRC/NJR dealer if I don't like these MUSES I want to return them in at most 7 days; they agrees, with some conditions: they'll test the OPAMPs to be perfectly operational and ofc no soldered pins allowed. After my first test in my Essence One as I/V converter I realized that these OPAMPs should be a keeper, at least in I/V stage.
One thing's for sure: blind A/B test done by 2 different persons between 2 identical DACs is definitely not snake oil.
Feel free to find my posts from Head-Fi is you really care about.Thanks for reading,
Raul.
mmm. Alhough I'm not a disciple of the opamp rolling school, I can sort of see something here in the replies.
If all opamps sound the same according to some of the posts here, then does that mean all amplifiers sound the same? An opamp is essentially an amplifier of sorts?? isn't it? So why can't opamps sound different to eachother? If the MUSE opamps sound 'better', higher resolution than a standard NE5534, surely it's down to design? Just like amplifier 'x' sounding better than amplifier 'y'?
I do know that my Ayre power amp sounds better than my re-capped 1998 Naim NAP250. If that was easy to confirm in a simple A/B comparison then it MUST be the same with opamps?? The topologies are quite different between the MUSE, OPA134, 5534 or 714..... so ???
Just putting it out there...
Rob
If all opamps sound the same according to some of the posts here, then does that mean all amplifiers sound the same? An opamp is essentially an amplifier of sorts?? isn't it? So why can't opamps sound different to eachother? If the MUSE opamps sound 'better', higher resolution than a standard NE5534, surely it's down to design? Just like amplifier 'x' sounding better than amplifier 'y'?
I do know that my Ayre power amp sounds better than my re-capped 1998 Naim NAP250. If that was easy to confirm in a simple A/B comparison then it MUST be the same with opamps?? The topologies are quite different between the MUSE, OPA134, 5534 or 714..... so ???
Just putting it out there...
Rob
Rob, it's not a binary distinction and you're making an underlying straw man argument. And there are cases where one would expect opamps to sound different, like say a tl072 replaced by a opa1642 in a heavily loaded application. Assuming no oscillations (not a safe bet), at least opamp rolling is level matched (I haven't worked with low loop gain amps where there'd be notable deviation from ideal gain ratios), whereas all bets are off comparing two end products casually.
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This was done decades ago with a Raytheon 5534 re-branded. Has anyone actually de-capped one to see which generic it is?
My answer to Robmill. Opamps don't compare to audio amps. Indeed they are amps, but they actually are components. They are extrely high gain devices with fairly high imput impedance and fairly low output impedance. They never are used as is, such gain woul not make any sense. As is, they are definately not all the same. So, all is in how opamps ( components ) are implemented in the design.
To push this further, as far as I am concerned, it is non sense to bluntly compare Opamps. Swapping opamps, a popular mod, is likely non sensical..
To push this further, as far as I am concerned, it is non sense to bluntly compare Opamps. Swapping opamps, a popular mod, is likely non sensical..
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A/B tests proved me that OPAMPs rolling makes a difference, but that depends on the circuit/configuration (I've even seen people pairing or changing transistors and they can hear differences). I know that in some configurations changing OPAMPs does make a difference, especially in I/V, LowPass and Voltage Amplification stages.
I don't care if these differences I'm talking about are related to OPAMP capabilities to handle ripple or if it's related to BJT-input or FET-input etc., all I care is that some OPAMPs just sound better than other in some configurations and MUSES01 and MUSES02 does sound better than others indeed (I/V, LPF, VAS stages, not output buffers!).
There's someone on this forum that used to be a TI engineer and he designed audio OPAMPs and he "confessed" that TI has an audition room and they're doing lot of A/B test. If all OPAMPs sound the same I wonder why TI invested money in an audition room.
I totally agree with robmill, as I really believe he has a good point. Who doesn't believe him should try swapping OPAMPs in a Chu-Moy amp which is entirely OPAMPs based.
I don't care if these differences I'm talking about are related to OPAMP capabilities to handle ripple or if it's related to BJT-input or FET-input etc., all I care is that some OPAMPs just sound better than other in some configurations and MUSES01 and MUSES02 does sound better than others indeed (I/V, LPF, VAS stages, not output buffers!).
There's someone on this forum that used to be a TI engineer and he designed audio OPAMPs and he "confessed" that TI has an audition room and they're doing lot of A/B test. If all OPAMPs sound the same I wonder why TI invested money in an audition room.
I totally agree with robmill, as I really believe he has a good point. Who doesn't believe him should try swapping OPAMPs in a Chu-Moy amp which is entirely OPAMPs based.
Quite expensive, indeed, but I'm very pleased with my 4xMUSES01 in my DAC's I/V stage. I've also heard MUSES02 in Low-Pass Filter and I find them sounding better then many other OPAMPs.
I also own BURSON SS V5 OPAMPs and I find them very detailed and musical in Voltage-Gain stage, strongly recommended actually.
Note: I don't really trust my hearing memory (nobody should, it's only reliable around 4KHz), so my thoughts are mostly based on pure A/B testing.
I also own BURSON SS V5 OPAMPs and I find them very detailed and musical in Voltage-Gain stage, strongly recommended actually.
Note: I don't really trust my hearing memory (nobody should, it's only reliable around 4KHz), so my thoughts are mostly based on pure A/B testing.
Is it recommended to combine both Muses 01 and 02 in I/V stage?
Have you tried Muses02 in I/V stage instead?
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LM6172 & OPA2111
I'm replying to this post in particular because of the listed opamps .
In my Xonar STX I currently have 1x LM6172 in thje buffer section and 2x OPA2111KP in the I/V stage . I'm liking the sound more than the standard LM4562 and JRC 2114D’s , even though these are pretty impressive themselves ( if you look at the spec sheets ) . Very impressive specs from LM6172 ( see data sheet in link provided above ) , ridiculously high slew rate , and very low 2nd and 3rd harmonics . Timbre appears to be natural and realistic . Good , wide and deep soundstage . I'm still going to try a couple of other BB's in place of the OPA2111's to hear the difference .
I did try LME49720 in the buffer , but prefer LM6172 .
Listening to FLAC of Bruch's Violin concerto no.1 , Slovenian Philharmonic conducted by Stephen Gunzenhauser , over EL821 PP to B&W DM12's - SQ is immaculate .
Regards
Ari
I'm replying to this post in particular because of the listed opamps .
In my Xonar STX I currently have 1x LM6172 in thje buffer section and 2x OPA2111KP in the I/V stage . I'm liking the sound more than the standard LM4562 and JRC 2114D’s , even though these are pretty impressive themselves ( if you look at the spec sheets ) . Very impressive specs from LM6172 ( see data sheet in link provided above ) , ridiculously high slew rate , and very low 2nd and 3rd harmonics . Timbre appears to be natural and realistic . Good , wide and deep soundstage . I'm still going to try a couple of other BB's in place of the OPA2111's to hear the difference .
I did try LME49720 in the buffer , but prefer LM6172 .
Listening to FLAC of Bruch's Violin concerto no.1 , Slovenian Philharmonic conducted by Stephen Gunzenhauser , over EL821 PP to B&W DM12's - SQ is immaculate .
Regards
Ari
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Dear Raul,
given the fantastic 100mA o/p capabilities quoted for MUSES 8920, why did you only try it in the I/V application? To me, the stunning feature of that 8920 FET OpAmp (FET input only) seems to be Output/Drive-related. MUSES state that all except the very input is bipolar tech. Given their 6 or 7 devices/datasheets so far, the 8920 (at least on paper) appears to be the most daring edeavour, whereas with MUSES 02 and 8820 i can't help but hink they might be 5534 combined with a minimum amount of "extra" after all those 35+ years since the original Signetics launch.
Ralph
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Hello,
I did actually replaced my 2 x NJM4556D opamps from my Objective2 amplifier, but for some reason my scope told me that 8920 started to bend (almost clipping) at 98% of 4556's max. voltage. I think I posted some scope screenshots in Head-Fi forum, just can't find that post right now.
Anyway, I think MUSES8920 can make a very good output buffer in headphone amplifiers like O2 or similar, especially that are not running hot when used in this config (even paralleled, like in O2).
While pushing it to the limit, I've noticed that sine-wave starts to bend roundly before clipping, like tubes, same happened with MUSES02 when tested them in the same output stage of the O2 amplifier. Other opamps just clip almost instantly and signal looks very...rectangular. Most likely this is why some people prefer the MUSES opamps, because they sound a bit different (natural, spacious and warm) and I think the way they treat distortions make them sound a bit better.
See you,
Raul.
I did actually replaced my 2 x NJM4556D opamps from my Objective2 amplifier, but for some reason my scope told me that 8920 started to bend (almost clipping) at 98% of 4556's max. voltage. I think I posted some scope screenshots in Head-Fi forum, just can't find that post right now.
Anyway, I think MUSES8920 can make a very good output buffer in headphone amplifiers like O2 or similar, especially that are not running hot when used in this config (even paralleled, like in O2).
While pushing it to the limit, I've noticed that sine-wave starts to bend roundly before clipping, like tubes, same happened with MUSES02 when tested them in the same output stage of the O2 amplifier. Other opamps just clip almost instantly and signal looks very...rectangular. Most likely this is why some people prefer the MUSES opamps, because they sound a bit different (natural, spacious and warm) and I think the way they treat distortions make them sound a bit better.
See you,
Raul.
So,
DAC: 1xDSD1796
I/V: 1 x quad MC33079
LPF & buffer: 2 x N5532
Sorry, but I'm not familiar with this DAC and this is why I'm asking. Also, perhaps somebody else would be able to suggest if it's a good match.
Are you trying to upgrade the 2 x N5532? If so, then MUSES 8820 should do too, because these are Bipolar-input, exactly like the N5532.
Regards!
DAC: 1xDSD1796
I/V: 1 x quad MC33079
LPF & buffer: 2 x N5532
Sorry, but I'm not familiar with this DAC and this is why I'm asking. Also, perhaps somebody else would be able to suggest if it's a good match.
Are you trying to upgrade the 2 x N5532? If so, then MUSES 8820 should do too, because these are Bipolar-input, exactly like the N5532.
Regards!
My M1-DAC actually had the JRC version of NE5532CN fitted; and yes, very true, the MUSES8820 would actually be a more "natural" choice than the FET-Input 8920 is.
However, my nagging feeling with MUSES02 and MUSES8820 is that they are nothing but slightly modified JRC5532's. And i wanted to try a more profound change in tone, hence the FET-Input for output buffer.
Plus, the 8920 has better drive capability than 8820. Which prompted my question whether you had tried it in o/p buffer position yourself.
The MC33079 will see replacement by OPA1644 w/ DIP Adapter or LME
However, my nagging feeling with MUSES02 and MUSES8820 is that they are nothing but slightly modified JRC5532's. And i wanted to try a more profound change in tone, hence the FET-Input for output buffer.
Plus, the 8920 has better drive capability than 8820. Which prompted my question whether you had tried it in o/p buffer position yourself.
The MC33079 will see replacement by OPA1644 w/ DIP Adapter or LME
49740NA or LT1359CN. All in the mail, not listened to yet.
Ralph
I don't have an M1-DAC , but have been using OPA1612's for a while in a Xonar Essence STX - I thought it impossible to get any better , till Burson Audio sent me 3x Supreme Sound Opamps V5i . These things are just phenomenally good . Check out my review at the end of the Xonar Essence STX tweaking thread at headfi .
Pretty good V5i, indeed, but way below the original V5. I have them all tested in my Essence One Muses MKii and also in my Objective2: MUSES8820, MUSES8920, MUSES01, MUSES02, V5 and V5i (and way many others from BB/TI, NJR/JRC etc.).
Anyway, this is MUSES thread, so my recommendations would be, in order of preference:
- I/V: MUSES01, MUSES8920 (haven't tested MUSES03 yet, but it should work just great from what I've heard from dealer)
- LowPassFilter: MUSES02, MUSES8820 (JFET-input like MUSES01, MUSES8920 could do as well, just need to check the schematic if can be used)
- VoltageAmpStage: MUSES02, MUSES8820, but also MUSES01, MUSES8920, depending on the config
- Output buffer: MUSES8820/8920 should do fine if schematic and decoupling is well done, because sound should not be altered in any ways during this stage.
Manufacturers are recommending some opamps from 2 reasons:
- perfect compatibility with schematic
- price/performance ratio
So, a scope should probably be used after opamp upgrades.
P.S.: For LPF and VAS Burson SS V5 is really great, but needs double-testing with a scope.
Anyway, this is MUSES thread, so my recommendations would be, in order of preference:
- I/V: MUSES01, MUSES8920 (haven't tested MUSES03 yet, but it should work just great from what I've heard from dealer)
- LowPassFilter: MUSES02, MUSES8820 (JFET-input like MUSES01, MUSES8920 could do as well, just need to check the schematic if can be used)
- VoltageAmpStage: MUSES02, MUSES8820, but also MUSES01, MUSES8920, depending on the config
- Output buffer: MUSES8820/8920 should do fine if schematic and decoupling is well done, because sound should not be altered in any ways during this stage.
Manufacturers are recommending some opamps from 2 reasons:
- perfect compatibility with schematic
- price/performance ratio
So, a scope should probably be used after opamp upgrades.
P.S.: For LPF and VAS Burson SS V5 is really great, but needs double-testing with a scope.
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