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Old 9th August 2012, 10:46 AM   #11
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Originally Posted by jean-paul View Post
Try Ebay, find Toshiba 2SA1302 for instance. Report back if the amp you soldered them in still functions... I agree that the fear for fake parts is out of proportion but I have experienced fake TDA1541A and fake Wima caps so things are not made up. BTW the fake Wima caps were in a branded preamp.
Look at headphone forum, even Richard Marsh has been done in.
He hasnt even realised it yet, I dont think, although Ive pointed it out. So if ever I see this happening in a commercial product I wont be surprised.

Last edited by homemodder; 9th August 2012 at 10:49 AM.
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Old 9th August 2012, 11:30 AM   #12
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Homemodder, I don't know if fake or counterfeit is the correct term. I have bought several counterfeit 2SK1058/2SJ162 in the form of being cheap Hexfets that has been reprinted. My favorite picture is this one. I cannot imagine that it could be profitable to do this, but obviously it is.
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Old 9th August 2012, 11:38 AM   #13
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Originally Posted by triplej View Post
Iíve bought many hundreds of transistors, FETS and capacitors from HK based ebay stores and not a single fake in site.

Iíve had wrong parts suppled, wrong number of parts supplied and wrong batch numbers supplied but no fakes.

This whole fake transistor business is blown completely out of proportion.

By the wayÖ I donít consider an On Semi MPSA 42 for example a fake as long as you know you are getting an On Semi device and not a Motorola!
You hit the point on the head. Is it an On-Semi, or was it a reject out the back door of any old transistor that someone stamped On-Semi? On Semi makes some pretty poor transistors, but they will be within minimum spec. Night shift rejects won't.

The problem is VERY serious. People have been killed. Billions of dollars have been lost in aerospace and military rework. I need to say that again. People have lost their life due to counterfeit parts failure. Several military incidents and at least one airline.

The blame is to be applied across the entire cycle. Foundries need to dispose of defects, factories need to not be doing off-book runs at night, wholesalers need to know who they are dealing with, as to end suppliers. We made this worse by having laws to support small business, forcing purchase through middlemen with no ability to track the parts provenance. Who knows how many were bought from "some guy" with a box of parts? Pulled out of old boards and repainted IC's? Second shift "private" packaging runs? Counterfeit parts is big business. Foundries sell raw chips without monitoring if the packaging is what the chip is. Things like a cheap DAC or Op-Amp being packaged and sold as an expensive one WITH THE FOUNDRIES NAME on it. How do you know if that $29 latest super op-amp is not really a 741?

This will take serious international police action to clean up. There is one country where most of the problem lies, by default as that is where the foundries and packaging plants are. We need them to do the most. They are trying. They will succeed. Capitalism is new to them and it takes time to learn you really do need rules in a knife fight. Look at Western capitalism history in the late 1800's and early 1900's. UGLY. They need help from the suppliers, be they in HK, UK, or Kansas. They need help from the end users to scream as loud as we can when we fall victim. We need criminal prosecutions. It is hurting the global economy as there is less trust in business than there could be.

Good business is good business. If you make an honest dollar today, you stand a better chance to make another one tomorrow. This message has not had time to sink in.
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Old 9th August 2012, 11:48 AM   #14
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Excellent argument tvrgeek
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Old 9th August 2012, 12:02 PM   #15
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That pic has become mystic in electronics circles.

Tvr, good and very truthfull argument, a certain country would probably come to a economic standstill if the fake business were to vanish as it doesnt only apply to electronics but accross many and I dare say all industries from clothing to beauty products to you name it. Their goverment is well aware of this and the reason they dont do anything about it.
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Old 9th August 2012, 12:04 PM   #16
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Originally Posted by homemodder View Post
Thats probably because you dont know how to distinguish or you dont measure to conform that they perform according to spec. The parts do work, thats not the problem.

Perhaps you dont know but ONsemi bought the Motorola semiconductor manufacturing company part of Motorola back in 1999 so you getting the parts exactly from the same factory and made by the same machines and probably the same staff, only the company name has changed.
I didn't know on semi bought motorola but that just makes my statement more correct.

I test every transistor I use for vbe and hfe so you are assuming incorrectly there. I've had bin ends / seconds supplied but then again I paid nothing for them so you get what you pay for.

A fake is a device labeled as something it's not.

Last edited by triplej; 9th August 2012 at 12:07 PM. Reason: Duplicate line
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Old 9th August 2012, 12:19 PM   #17
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Homemodder, I believe that (not so) thorough bred German motorcars are being manufactured in this country but even their own people resist to buy locally produced vehicles and go to length to obtain the imported version. And that is not even counterfeiting.
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Old 9th August 2012, 12:19 PM   #18
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Measuring vbe and hfe doesnt begin to cut it at all, Testing for things like Vce, SOA, FT, capacitances is needed to sort fake from real parts. I could pass you a rf transistor for a mpsa on the basis of just hfe and vbe (both having lowish hfe figures but Rf transistors in near all cases low vce), youd only find out when you applied high voltage to it as an example.
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Old 9th August 2012, 12:30 PM   #19
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Originally Posted by homemodder View Post
Measuring vbe and hfe doesnt begin to cut it at all, Testing for things like Vce, SOA, FT, capacitances is needed to sort fake from real parts. I could pass you a rf transistor for a mpsa on the basis of just hfe and vbe (both having lowish hfe figures but Rf transistors in near all cases low vce), youd only find out when you applied high voltage to it as an example.
You perform SOA and vce tests on all the transistors you buy to decide if they are fakes or not? Wow.
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Old 9th August 2012, 12:37 PM   #20
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Homemodder, I believe that (not so) thorough bred German motorcars are being manufactured in this country but even their own people resist to buy locally produced vehicles and go to length to obtain the imported version. And that is not even counterfeiting.
I saw them on sale in Madrid some weeks back, you can only tell when you take a closer look, accross a hall youll be fooled. Istill dont understand how certain countries allow this and even legal routes have failed to to correct this. Me thinks the the not so thorough bred doesnt even come close to the original datasheet spec.

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