Hi,
Been a long time since I was here, my hifi got good with your tips so no longer needed help.
However something has changed and I am curious, and would appreciate some expert advice.
I am very happy to say I just saved a pair of Tag Mclaren 125ms from a skip.
Seriously!
I have plugged them in to my hifi and i am amazed with the change in sound.
That is the thing that perplexes me, why is there such a significant change in sound; I thought all high end amps sounded kinda similar?
My set up is as follows:
AAA5+ CDP
Rotel RC-995
Rotel RB-991 --> 2xTag 125m
Acoustic Energy 309
All cabling Black Rhodium.
With the Rotel Amp the bass and treble were VERY forward, with midrange a bit relaxed. With the Tags the treble and mid is forward and bass more relaxed.
The sound change is significant, even my wife could notice the difference (and that is saying something).
On paper the amps are very similar. High damping factor, 145/200w similar gain. Distortion is under o.o3%.
So finally to the question.
If the distortion is so low, and stats so similar, how can the sound be so different?
P
Been a long time since I was here, my hifi got good with your tips so no longer needed help.
However something has changed and I am curious, and would appreciate some expert advice.
I am very happy to say I just saved a pair of Tag Mclaren 125ms from a skip.
Seriously!
I have plugged them in to my hifi and i am amazed with the change in sound.
That is the thing that perplexes me, why is there such a significant change in sound; I thought all high end amps sounded kinda similar?
My set up is as follows:
AAA5+ CDP
Rotel RC-995
Rotel RB-991 --> 2xTag 125m
Acoustic Energy 309
All cabling Black Rhodium.
With the Rotel Amp the bass and treble were VERY forward, with midrange a bit relaxed. With the Tags the treble and mid is forward and bass more relaxed.
The sound change is significant, even my wife could notice the difference (and that is saying something).
On paper the amps are very similar. High damping factor, 145/200w similar gain. Distortion is under o.o3%.
So finally to the question.
If the distortion is so low, and stats so similar, how can the sound be so different?
P
Either one of the amps is not performing to spec, or you got fooled by significantly different voltage gain (and thus output volume) between the two.
Now I checked the specs of the 125Ms, and voltage gain is stated as 29.0 dB, while for the Rotel it calculates to 28.9something dB from its schematic - close enough, I say. Oddly, however, Stereophile measurements for the RB-991 indicate a gain of 31.8 dB when using the unbalanced inputs, almost 3 dB more than specified. That may already explain the differences you were hearing.
Other than that the Rotel makes a pretty good "wire with gain". It also contains fairly little that could impair performance with age (including no protection relay; the only kind of protection is provided by rail fuses, for better or worse).
Argh just spent 10 mins writing a nice detailed answer, and then page lost it, typical!
Either one of the amps is not performing to spec, or you got fooled by significantly different voltage gain (and thus output volume) between the two.
That was first thought.
I tried Rotel with both balanced and unbalanced and could not notice any difference.
Then compared left right channels on both amps, identical.
So as the Tags are monos that pretty conclusively puts them as functioning perfectly. The Rotels are not far off monos, think they only share transformer, think that is working too!
"It could be concluded that bass was weak on The Tag McClaren amplifiers. "
You could say that the mid was lacking in the Rotel just as fairly.
Unless I get out an oscilascope I not sure what to check.
Think J might had hit it on the head.
Although the stats suggest perfect reproduction, they don't, they all add their own character. So much for "wire with gain" theory!
Either one of the amps is not performing to spec, or you got fooled by significantly different voltage gain (and thus output volume) between the two.
That was first thought.
I tried Rotel with both balanced and unbalanced and could not notice any difference.
Then compared left right channels on both amps, identical.
So as the Tags are monos that pretty conclusively puts them as functioning perfectly. The Rotels are not far off monos, think they only share transformer, think that is working too!
"It could be concluded that bass was weak on The Tag McClaren amplifiers. "
You could say that the mid was lacking in the Rotel just as fairly.
Unless I get out an oscilascope I not sure what to check.
Think J might had hit it on the head.
Although the stats suggest perfect reproduction, they don't, they all add their own character. So much for "wire with gain" theory!
Do the amplifiers sound different using an AB comparison test?
It's amazing how different the bass and treble sounds when levels aren't the same. The gains have to be well matched to within a fraction of a dB for amplifiers to sound similar.
I used some scrap relays along with some standard potentiometers to build a switching box to compare units. The conclusion was that amplifiers sound pretty much the same.
Certainly not true for Loudspeakers.
It's amazing how different the bass and treble sounds when levels aren't the same. The gains have to be well matched to within a fraction of a dB for amplifiers to sound similar.
I used some scrap relays along with some standard potentiometers to build a switching box to compare units. The conclusion was that amplifiers sound pretty much the same.
Certainly not true for Loudspeakers.
Hi, Exposure's sound different to Linn's which sound different to Ferrograph's.
The list is endless, even resistors sound different, ask the modders
It's possible to make an amplifier that does sound different. Just a fraction of dB diference in frequency response is detectable in an AB comparison test though I don't know if that really matters
Is the Ferrograph amplifier old? Some of the early semiconductor amplifiers would sound different.
Is the Ferrograph amplifier old? Some of the early semiconductor amplifiers would sound different.
hi, not contentious, but I thought people who may not know should be aware that every single piece of the hi fi jigsaw sounds different and should be auditioned, if possible, and the final combination in an ideal world should be listened to at home, because true hi fi reproduction doesn't exist, just a sound that we are happy with.
When we have found that sound, then we can enjoy the music.
Unfortunately the "all components sound different" philosophy had led to all kinds of ridiculous audiophoolery over the last couple of decades.
It is quite possible to build some classes of equipment (like digital sources or amplifiers) in such a way that they cannot be told apart in a valid (precisely level-matched, double-blind, no-clipping) comparison. And honestly, I'd much rather know that my electronics are up to snuff since then I can concentrate on the real elephant in the room (acoustics).
Assuming you have some sines handy, a scope should show a level difference quite nicely, too.
It is quite possible to build some classes of equipment (like digital sources or amplifiers) in such a way that they cannot be told apart in a valid (precisely level-matched, double-blind, no-clipping) comparison. And honestly, I'd much rather know that my electronics are up to snuff since then I can concentrate on the real elephant in the room (acoustics).
Expectedly, as balanced outputs tend to be 6 dB louder and the balanced input has a gain of -6 dB (measured total gain was 25.8 dB).
OK, but what about one channel TAG and the other Rotel (preferably with mono material unless you have a switch)?
Assuming you have some sines handy, a scope should show a level difference quite nicely, too.
If that were true I could buy a Chinese Black Gate with the confidence that it would sound the same as a genuine Blackgate capacitor.
Panasonic FC sound great in power supplies cheaper ones don't.
The list of known good sounding parts, caps, resistors, transistors etc is endless and if you are telling me that it is some snake oil, then I have to disagree.
To the original poster, yes your amps sound different, because they are
if you do buy and test a 220uF 35V black gate and compare it to a Chinese version of a 220uF 35V (fake), you may/will find they have quite different specifications.
That does not prove one way or the other that the caps have a sound, or have a difference in sound, or affect the way the circuit performs in processing the sound signal.
There is no doubt that parts quality has an influence here and there. But if it's audible, it's easily measurable as well. If, however, I have a piece of equipment for which a sensible and sufficiently comprehensive set of measurements indicates that it should be audibly transparent, I could not care less whether it uses bottom of the pile cheapo Chinese parts or magic pixie dust.
Well, actually I would care - it's always handy if stuff still performs well 20 years after building.
I would not trust part choices by ear much if expected differences are small and listening is all sighted. Obviously transistor choices may be readily audible in a simple amplifier circuit with low loop gain, no doubt about that. (And they would jump at you in measurements.) But swapping out electrolytics in something that powers a bunch of opamps or other components with good PSRR? That's going to be tough.
Well, actually I would care - it's always handy if stuff still performs well 20 years after building.
I would not trust part choices by ear much if expected differences are small and listening is all sighted. Obviously transistor choices may be readily audible in a simple amplifier circuit with low loop gain, no doubt about that. (And they would jump at you in measurements.) But swapping out electrolytics in something that powers a bunch of opamps or other components with good PSRR? That's going to be tough.
I used to sell both Tag & Rotel kit. Splitting a given budget over a better Tag processor and Rotel power amplification always gave better sound than buying an all Tag system (with lesser processor and more spent on amps). There was less of a difference in quality between the amps than the different Tag processors.
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