Big difference in amps - tag/rotel has me confused - Page 3 - diyAudio
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Old 1st June 2012, 02:12 PM   #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by inteificio View Post

I prefer the TAG, wifey the Rotel.
But how can you, the other posters in this thread insist that all amplifiers sound the same,

I'm selling my Linn LK280 and buying a Rotel
I'll get my coat

Last edited by j baldam; 1st June 2012 at 02:14 PM.
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Old 1st June 2012, 03:22 PM   #22
sbrads is offline sbrads  United Kingdom
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All amplifiers sound the same if you listen to sine waves
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Old 1st June 2012, 03:48 PM   #23
PChi is offline PChi  United Kingdom
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Again I ask have people who think that they hear differences tried an AB comparison with matched levels?

It's possible to make an amplifier sound different. There is no guarantee that the frequency response is flat. For instance the output impedance of Valve amplifiers driving real loads will cause frequency response irregularities which I can believe can be heard in an AB comparison.

I am assumimg that the Ferrograph amplifier is old and dates back to the time when solid state amplifiers were new and transistors were expensive. I can believe that it sounds different but it really belongs in a museum.

If an amplifier is linear it doesn't matter if it's music or a single frequency sine wave it should still just amplify. Refering back to the first sentence.
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Old 1st June 2012, 04:09 PM   #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by j baldam View Post
... other posters in this thread insist that all amplifiers sound the same...
If apples were apples, that would be fair comment but now you're talking about more than just amplifiers. Some, like the Naim, have
a few little tweaks so they will indeed sound different. Most don't have such identifiable tricks as cause deliberate distortion.

It's no secret and clear enough on the schematics, if sometimes buried in folklore and enthusiast or marketing hype.
Tag Mclaren circuits are remarkably close to Self's Blameless model and devoid of sonic embellishments as would seem Rotel designs
but there are design "flaws" also giving rise to significant distortion which (I think) gives many Rotel amplifiers their character.
These aren't parts issues, I'd call them deliberate "colouring" of the sound. That virtually prevents fair comparison of many
commercial amplifiers but there are many forum designs that will sound identical, with low distortion and "untweaked" as they are.
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Old 2nd June 2012, 07:15 AM   #25
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I was wondering if Rotel cheated. the sound difference did remind me of the "WOW!" mode on my car hifi, the mode that got turned off (my car speakers are Monitor Audio studio 15s from a custom made T amp)
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Old 2nd June 2012, 08:23 AM   #26
pdul is offline pdul  Denmark
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Did you check the electrolytics in the powersupply of the Tags? Maybe that could be the culprit "weak bass"
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Old 2nd June 2012, 10:10 AM   #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ian Finch View Post

Tag Mclaren circuits are remarkably close to Self's Blameless model and devoid of sonic embellishments as would seem Rotel designs
but there are design "flaws" also giving rise to significant distortion which (I think) gives many Rotel amplifiers their character.
.
Tag Maclaren circuits are way different to Self Blameless, the only resemblance being a input LTP.

Distortion in Rotels arent so significant as one may think, they are very conservatively rated on paper.
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Old 2nd June 2012, 10:30 AM   #28
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The measurements for the RB-991 in particular look just about immaculate. As you'd expect with a balanced topology having good open-loop gain and 5 pairs of o/p transistors.
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Old 2nd June 2012, 01:12 PM   #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by homemodder View Post
....Tag Mclaren circuits are way different to Self Blameless......Distortion in Rotels arent so significant as one may think, they are very conservatively rated on paper....
There is a lot more than the LTP similar with this one's big brother, the 250x2R monooblocs which are definitely in the family, albeit with the addition of a few limiters.

As I recall, these 125s follow suit, though I can't locate the schematic atm. Obviously each contracted designer brings their own topologies and so these and other concurrent models are indeed "Blameless" for one good reason. Categorized Schematics and Service Manuals for free download S-U

I have a small ROTEL, an RA1060 which, with fixed tones, is within spec. @ <0.02% THD as measured on a 24/192 soundcard. The IMD and HF distortion is more telling, at around .04% at 12W with a lot of products crowding into the mid and HF. Others use a CCS and current mirror on the LTP but ROTEL eschew it, to some effect, when paired with their triple output stage, I think. That gives the characteristic sound which is not hard to duplicate.

Most people probably think of the overkill ROTEL monsters as good examples but the character is more obvious in the smaller models that do get thrashed and show their weaknesses, if that's what they are.
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Old 2nd June 2012, 01:49 PM   #30
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Interesting, the TAG looks like the Bob Cordell textbook (but still no RC filter on the LTP and VAS supplies!). The Rotel will measure well with a 1kHz sinewave, but suffer serious intermods for a 60Hz + 1kHz two tone test.
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