Big difference in amps - tag/rotel has me confused - Page 2 - diyAudio
Go Back   Home > Forums > Amplifiers > Solid State

Solid State Talk all about solid state amplification.

Please consider donating to help us continue to serve you.

Ads on/off / Custom Title / More PMs / More album space / Advanced printing & mass image saving
Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old 1st June 2012, 09:50 AM   #11
diyAudio Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: stockton on tees
Quote:
Originally Posted by inteificio View Post
Didn't realize this would be such a contentious issue!
hi, not contentious, but I thought people who may not know should be aware that every single piece of the hi fi jigsaw sounds different and should be auditioned, if possible, and the final combination in an ideal world should be listened to at home, because true hi fi reproduction doesn't exist, just a sound that we are happy with.

When we have found that sound, then we can enjoy the music.
  Reply With Quote
Old 1st June 2012, 10:44 AM   #12
diyAudio Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Germany
Unfortunately the "all components sound different" philosophy had led to all kinds of ridiculous audiophoolery over the last couple of decades.

It is quite possible to build some classes of equipment (like digital sources or amplifiers) in such a way that they cannot be told apart in a valid (precisely level-matched, double-blind, no-clipping) comparison. And honestly, I'd much rather know that my electronics are up to snuff since then I can concentrate on the real elephant in the room (acoustics).
Quote:
Originally Posted by inteificio View Post
I tried Rotel with both balanced and unbalanced and could not notice any difference.
Expectedly, as balanced outputs tend to be 6 dB louder and the balanced input has a gain of -6 dB (measured total gain was 25.8 dB).
Quote:
Originally Posted by inteificio View Post
Then compared left right channels on both amps, identical.
OK, but what about one channel TAG and the other Rotel (preferably with mono material unless you have a switch)?

Assuming you have some sines handy, a scope should show a level difference quite nicely, too.
  Reply With Quote
Old 1st June 2012, 10:55 AM   #13
diyAudio Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: stockton on tees
Quote:
Originally Posted by sgrossklass View Post
Unfortunately the "all components sound different" philosophy had led to all kinds of ridiculous audiophoolery over the last couple of decades.
If that were true I could buy a Chinese Black Gate with the confidence that it would sound the same as a genuine Blackgate capacitor.

Panasonic FC sound great in power supplies cheaper ones don't.

The list of known good sounding parts, caps, resistors, transistors etc is endless and if you are telling me that it is some snake oil, then I have to disagree.

To the original poster, yes your amps sound different, because they are
  Reply With Quote
Old 1st June 2012, 11:04 AM   #14
AndrewT is offline AndrewT  Scotland
diyAudio Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Scottish Borders
Quote:
Originally Posted by j baldam View Post
If that were true I could buy a Chinese Black Gate with the confidence that it would sound the same as a genuine Blackgate capacitor.
if you do buy and test a 220uF 35V black gate and compare it to a Chinese version of a 220uF 35V (fake), you may/will find they have quite different specifications.

That does not prove one way or the other that the caps have a sound, or have a difference in sound, or affect the way the circuit performs in processing the sound signal.
__________________
regards Andrew T.
  Reply With Quote
Old 1st June 2012, 11:49 AM   #15
diyAudio Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Germany
There is no doubt that parts quality has an influence here and there. But if it's audible, it's easily measurable as well. If, however, I have a piece of equipment for which a sensible and sufficiently comprehensive set of measurements indicates that it should be audibly transparent, I could not care less whether it uses bottom of the pile cheapo Chinese parts or magic pixie dust.

Well, actually I would care - it's always handy if stuff still performs well 20 years after building.

I would not trust part choices by ear much if expected differences are small and listening is all sighted. Obviously transistor choices may be readily audible in a simple amplifier circuit with low loop gain, no doubt about that. (And they would jump at you in measurements.) But swapping out electrolytics in something that powers a bunch of opamps or other components with good PSRR? That's going to be tough.
  Reply With Quote
Old 1st June 2012, 11:53 AM   #16
diyAudio Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: York
[QUOTE=sgrossklass;3044580]

Expectedly, as balanced outputs tend to be 6 dB louder and the balanced input has a gain of -6 dB (measured total gain was 25.8 dB).

lol, that does make sense.


OK, but what about one channel TAG and the other Rotel (preferably with mono material unless you have a switch)?

did that one too, very noticeable. A lot of DB tests on my hifi I would be able to spot there was a difference, but not say what was what. This would be easy. Any song, a few seconds and I would be able to tell you which amp was which.

Assuming you have some sines handy, a scope should show a level difference quite nicely, too.


If we are talking about components I always use black gates too. Not sure how they affect the sound, the reason I use them is they last for ever without issues. I recently serviced the Rotel amp, the only thing that needed fixing was the only cheap cap in the case, the one on the power on circuit!
Quality lasts.




One other thought is the Straight Line tech in the Tags, not seen that before and not a large enough understanding to see how it would work.
The Rotel is biwired off the same terminals, the Tags separate.
Could the back EMF off the drivers make a significant difference if the tags filtered it out?
  Reply With Quote
Old 1st June 2012, 12:06 PM   #17
diyAudio Member
 
Nico Ras's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: East Coast of South Africa
Quote:
Originally Posted by inteificio View Post
The sound change is significant, even my wife could notice the difference (and that is saying something).
P
Another proof that married woman have no clue about sound.
__________________
Kindest regards
Nico
  Reply With Quote
Old 1st June 2012, 12:18 PM   #18
diyAudio Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: York
The important thing is they do not discover how much good sound costs.

If she asks I spend no more than 50!
  Reply With Quote
Old 1st June 2012, 01:17 PM   #19
diyAudio Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
I used to sell both Tag & Rotel kit. Splitting a given budget over a better Tag processor and Rotel power amplification always gave better sound than buying an all Tag system (with lesser processor and more spent on amps). There was less of a difference in quality between the amps than the different Tag processors.
  Reply With Quote
Old 1st June 2012, 01:55 PM   #20
diyAudio Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: York
Did you get to compare the Tag 125m and the Rb-991? Way different pricing (2400, vs 650), but wonder how quality compares?

I prefer the TAG, wifey the Rotel.

Last edited by inteificio; 1st June 2012 at 01:59 PM.
  Reply With Quote

Reply


Hide this!Advertise here!
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
WANTED : Rotel Preamp (with Remote) & Rotel Power Amps - Working or NOT dtm1962 Swap Meet 7 18th December 2012 06:45 PM
New to Valve Amps and Confused??? paulluvsmusic Tubes / Valves 6 27th September 2009 07:46 AM
Is the big difference of L15RLY compare to W15CY ? fdw412 Multi-Way 1 12th April 2009 10:31 AM
Big sale thread: PHL, Raven, Amps, In-wall/ceiling speakers, Amps, VideoRequest mbcouple Swap Meet 2 27th October 2008 10:27 PM


New To Site? Need Help?

All times are GMT. The time now is 08:53 AM.


vBulletin Optimisation provided by vB Optimise (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2014 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.
Copyright 1999-2014 diyAudio

Content Relevant URLs by vBSEO 3.3.2