Question on input noise current
 User Name Stay logged in? Password
 Home Forums Rules Articles diyAudio Store Blogs Gallery Wiki Register Donations FAQ Calendar Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read Search

 Solid State Talk all about solid state amplification.

 Please consider donating to help us continue to serve you. Ads on/off / Custom Title / More PMs / More album space / Advanced printing & mass image saving
 21st September 2003, 09:18 PM #1 Christer   diyAudio Member   Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Sweden Question on input noise current Noise was recently discussed in another thread, but since that thread ended up discussing everything but the original topic (which wasn't noise) I thought it better to start a new thread. In the other thread I posted the following links to documents on noise, which also others may perhaps find useful. http://www.national.com/an/AN/AN-104.pdf (deals with noise on amplifier level and defines the basic theory needed for this) http://www.eie.polyu.edu.hk/~ensury...h3/Chapter3.htm (defines and discusses noise sources in semiconductor devices) http://www.teicontrols.com/notes/El...cCircuitsII.pdf (actually a compilation of diagrams and formulae on various things, but also briefly defines the basic types of noise.) http://www.teicontrols.com/notes/El...iseReferral.pdf (Another document discussing referral of noise sources to the input, also covered in the National app note). Now, I think I have spotted an error in the last of these documents, but I don't trust my own analysis enough to convince myself to 100% that it is indeed an error, so I would appreciate your opinion. The first document (National app note 104) defines the eq. noise input current as a current source between the inputs of an amp. This seems reasonable to me and I trust the people at National to know what they are talking about, so I accept this as the standard definition, unless somebody protests. In many cases it will be convenient to split this current source into two current sources, one between the positive input and ground and one between the negative input and ground. These two sources will both have the same value (the value being a function over time) but opposite directions. Since they have the same value, their respective contributions to the eq. input noise must, as far as I can understand, be summed using plain standard addition. However, document 4 assumes these two sources to be independent noise currents and sum them in rms fashion. Is this an error in document 4, or do I go astray somewhere in my reasoning?? This will probably only make a difference in the case current noise is the dominant noise source and the source and feedback resistances are on the same order, but then it does make quite a difference.
 22nd September 2003, 01:40 AM #2 john curl   diyAudio Member     Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: berkeley ca Folks, input 'current noise' is the noise made by the electrons crossing a junction. It is formally called shot noise. It has a formula, but usually low noise transistors will have it graphed in their spec sheet. It is usually spec'd with picro amps/rt-Hz. Now what you do is to get a number off the graph and MULTIPLY it by the effective source resistance(this includes any resistors in both the base and the emitter, including local feedback resistors). For example, a noise current of 1pA/rt-Hz and a 1K source would have an effective input noise contribution of 1nV/rt-Hz. This might make a LM394 about 3dB noisier.
 22nd September 2003, 03:02 AM #3 SY   On Hiatus     Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Chicagoland And if we parse John's first sentence, you can see that noise across two junctions will be independent. They can be added in an RMS way to get the single current noise source of the National paper. BTW, that National app note saved me a year of grief when I was a student. A really understandable analysis. __________________ "You tell me whar a man gits his corn pone, en I'll tell you what his 'pinions is."
 22nd September 2003, 11:31 AM #4 Christer   diyAudio Member   Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Sweden John and SY, Perhaps I was a bit unclear, I am sorry for that. My question was not about calculating the input noise current for a design, but rather on how to use the given figure for an opamp. (Well, John says something on this thay may perhaps be understood as confirming how I understand this, but I am not sure if that is the way to understand him). More particularly, I should have said that I was considering an op amp used in non-inverting config. Now, according to the National app note., the input noise figure is by definition referring to a virtual current source between the two inputs (the reference direction is, of course, arbitrary since it is noise, so let's say it is from neg. input to pos. input). Let's denote this noise current by i(t), which is a random function over time. This currents causes noise voltages over the source resistance and over the feedback resistance. When calculating the corresponding equivalent input noise voltage, it may simplify the analysis to split this current source into two, one from ground to the pos. input and one from the neg. input to ground. These two currents must be identical, both having the value i(t), or else we would violate KCL (as far as I can see, Kirchoffs laws must hold also for random currents and voltages, ie. noise). Hence, the way to go about would be to make this split, and then by superposition find the eq. input voltage for each current and add these voltages. This is ordinary addition since the two currents are identical rather than independent. Then, this sum can be treated as an independent noise voltage corresponding to the one original noise current. However, document 4 (which is about noise referral) uses two separate current sources, one for the pos. input and one for the new. input, and treats these as independent noise sources, which would seem to be wrong if my reasoning above is correct. In fairness, it should be pointed out that this document does not define how to derive values for the two noise currents from one single noise current as given in a datasheet. However, it seems not obvious that one could derive two independent noise currents from a single one, such that the net results are identical.
 22nd September 2003, 11:42 AM #5 MarcelvdG   diyAudio Member   Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Haarlem, the Netherlands I haven't been able to read the second, third or fourth document, because the links don't seem to work on this computer. That is why I don't know how much of the following applies to the case analysed in Christer's fourth reference. Anyway, in theorectical analyses, the amplifier is often assumed to be a two-port with (by definition) a perfectly floating input port. For practical amplifiers with a differential input, it does not necessarily make sense to define a single equivalent input noise current. In general, you need two different equivalent input noise currents to get an adequate model when you have a differential input. For the case of a bipolar differential pair without base current compensation and with a symmetric load, assuming the shot noise of the base current to be dominant, the noise current can be described with two uncorrelated sources with a power spectral density of 2qIB (RMS value sqrt(2qIB*DELTAf) over a bandwidth DELTAf), one going to one base, the other to the other base. You can transform these into an equivalent differential input noise current source and two fully correlated common-mode input noise current sources if you like, but unless the impedances driving the positive and negative inputs are equal, it makes no sense to use only a differential source. In general, base current shot noise is only one of many contributions to the equivalent input noise current or currents. Others which are often significant are base current 1/f-noise and in some cases base current compensation circuit noise.
 22nd September 2003, 12:16 PM #6 Christer   diyAudio Member   Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Sweden Marcel, sorry about the links. Some piece of "intelligent" software somewhere along the way must have abbreviated them without me noticing it. Here are the links again: http://www.national.com/an/AN/AN-104.pdf http://www.eie.polyu.edu.hk/~ensurya...3/Chapter3.htm http://www.teicontrols.com/notes/Ele...CircuitsII.pdf http://www.teicontrols.com/notes/Ele...seReferral.pdf What you say makes sense, but I am not sure it it answers my question. Although it may not be reasonable to treat the current noise as one differential source, as you say, that is what we are given to work with from the datasheet, assuming datasheets adhere to the definition in the National app note, that is. (I just checked a few datasheets, and except for CFB amps, none of them defined what the noise current figure refers to). The question then is how to best make use of this figure.
 22nd September 2003, 12:20 PM #7 Christer   diyAudio Member   Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Sweden Sorry again, but it seems to be the forum software that pretends to be intelligent and abbreviates the links I'll make a new attempt and split the links to see if that works http://www.eie.polyu.edu.hk/~ensurya...3/Chapter3.htm http://www.teicontrols.com/notes/Ele...CircuitsII.pdf http://www.teicontrols.com/notes/Ele...seReferral.pdf Edit: It seems the problem is only with displaying the URLs correctly, so maybe there is some problem with Internet Explorer rather than the forum software, so perhaps only some of us got the links abbreviated. Anyway, I have reported the problem to the admins.
 22nd September 2003, 02:28 PM #8 MarcelvdG   diyAudio Member   Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Haarlem, the Netherlands I usually first look if there is some additional information hidden in the data sheet, like the noise current measurement set-up or a graph of the total noise versus unmatched source impedance. If I can't find anything, I look at the internal schematic. If the op-amp has a bipolar input stage without base current compensation, normally each input has a noise current with twice the power spectral density (3dB more) of the differential noise current. As base shot noise and 1/f noise usually dominate in bipolar op-amps without base current compensation, you should also be able to calculate the white part of the input noise current in A/sqrt(Hz) from sqrt(2q times the input bias current), where q is the electron charge (1.6022E-19 C). If the op-amp does have base current compensation, depending on the exact circuit, there may be a very large common-mode input noise current component. In this case, if the datasheet doesn't provide any additional information, it's anybodies guess how much noise it will generate with unequal impedances driving the positive and negative inputs.
SY
On Hiatus

Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: Chicagoland
Quote:
 In this case, if the datasheet doesn't provide any additional information, it's anybodies guess how much noise it will generate with unequal impedances driving the positive and negative inputs.
Well, presumably, the two transistors in the input diff amp will be the same (or close to it). Same bias comp. So I would think that the noise contribution from each source can be calculated independently, then RMSed to get total noise.
__________________
"You tell me whar a man gits his corn pone, en I'll tell you what his 'pinions is."

 22nd September 2003, 03:41 PM #10 Christer   diyAudio Member   Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Sweden Marcel, Thanks, although perhaps not quite the answer I asked for, it is probably the answer I should have asked for, since it goes deeper than just trusting and using a single figure from the datasheet. It is probably a sensible thing to follow your procedure when an as exact results as possible is desired. In other cases, it is still interesting to make the best of the given figure, without losing more accuracy than is already lost in such a compund figure. when I said I checked a number of datasheets before, I must confess I didn't check those for the usual low-noise op amps, since I didn't find those particular datasheets at the moment. I have now checked LT1028, LT115 and AD797, and these datasheets do contain som further info. LT mentions the test procedure, as using equal balanced source resistors, measuring the noise voltage, and, after compensating for the thermal noise, dividing the remaining voltage by the sum of the resistors. Similaryly, AD says that the noise voltage produced by the current noise is the current noise multiplied by the sum of source resistances for the two inputs. This is, as far as I understand, consistent with my line of reasoning that the differential current source can be replaced by two identical ones, that is, not two independent ones as suggested in the fourth document I linked to.

 Posting Rules You may not post new threads You may not post replies You may not post attachments You may not edit your posts BB code is On Smilies are On [IMG] code is On HTML code is Off Forum Rules
 Forum Jump User Control Panel Private Messages Subscriptions Who's Online Search Forums Forums Home Site     Site Announcements     Forum Problems Amplifiers     Solid State     Pass Labs     Tubes / Valves     Chip Amps     Class D     Power Supplies     Headphone Systems Source & Line     Analogue Source     Analog Line Level     Digital Source     Digital Line Level     PC Based Loudspeakers     Multi-Way     Full Range     Subwoofers     Planars & Exotics Live Sound     PA Systems     Instruments and Amps Design & Build     Parts     Equipment & Tools     Construction Tips     Software Tools General Interest     Car Audio     diyAudio.com Articles     Music     Everything Else Member Areas     Introductions     The Lounge     Clubs & Events     In Memoriam The Moving Image Commercial Sector     Swap Meet     Group Buys     The diyAudio Store     Vendor Forums         Vendor's Bazaar         Sonic Craft         Apex Jr         Audio Sector         Acoustic Fun         Chipamp         DIY HiFi Supply         Elekit         Elektor         Mains Cables R Us         Parts Connexion         Planet 10 hifi         Quanghao Audio Design         Siliconray Online Electronics Store         Tubelab     Manufacturers         AKSA         Audio Poutine         Musicaltech         Holton Precision Audio         CSS         Dx Classic Amplifiers         exaDevices         Feastrex         GedLee         Head 'n' HiFi - Walter         Heatsink USA         miniDSP         SITO Audio         Twin Audio         Twisted Pear         Wild Burro Audio

 Similar Threads Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post nobody special Solid State 8 29th August 2005 09:23 PM YUTK Solid State 11 2nd June 2005 03:34 AM thanh Solid State 0 8th July 2004 04:34 AM

 New To Site? Need Help?

All times are GMT. The time now is 09:34 PM.