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Old 9th September 2003, 10:20 PM   #11
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Quote:
Originally posted by DrG

I don't buy it. There are endless variables involved and you would have us believe that notwithstanding differences in speakers, sources, cables and rooms not to mention that every kitbuilder is going to use different transformers, resistors, caps and semicon vendors, you are capable of predicting the sound character of an amp...??!!

Forgive me Mr Moderator, but this sounds a lot like the purest form of distilled bull$hit I have ever heard.
Well, for once, I can will agree with DrG. I can built 5 amps using same circuit, yet they all will sound differently. When I hear a person saying how the amp sounds, just looking at the schematic, it can indeed sound like the purest form of distilled bull$hit.

PS: What exactly is coloration? Is it a sound that you are not used to, or maybe someting that is not on your "palette" of sounds, or maybe something that simply doesn't match your system? Because even a live event can be "colored" by the actual concert hall, not to mention the recording equipment.
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Old 9th September 2003, 10:46 PM   #12
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I was waiting this reactions, it is like break on pieces wasp net. Go on boys, I am stand alone with my words.
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Old 10th September 2003, 02:46 AM   #13
jam is offline jam  United States
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Guys,

Remember there is everyone else and then there is .......Pass.

Every one should get a chance to listen to an x-amp or an aleph x, it can be an education.

Regards,
Jam
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Old 10th September 2003, 04:03 AM   #14
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Quote:
Originally posted by Upupa Epops
I was waiting this reactions, it is like break on pieces wasp net. Go on boys, I am stand alone with my words.
I'm very much tempted to say: "Huston, we might have a problem".
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Old 10th September 2003, 10:37 AM   #15
DrG is offline DrG  South Africa
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Quote:
When I hear a person saying how the amp sounds, just looking at the schematic, it can indeed sound like the purest form of distilled bull$hit.
Absolutely! Nail on the head... Utter crapola!

Dear Upoopoo e-popsicle: either your vision and clairvoyance or your delusions of wisdom are of biblical proportions... my money is on the latter.
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Old 10th September 2003, 10:50 AM   #16
MikeW is offline MikeW  United States
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Quote:
I have a feeling that a Krell clone with:
- fully symetric design
- overkilled power supply
- regulated power supply for the voltage amp
- Sanken high speed output transistors

is the the best way to go for clean, powerfull, wide soundstage
If that's the sound you like go with it. Some people like single ended MOSFET designs.
I think that the Sanken transistors sound nice, but start to wear on you after a while. I like the On-Semi sound better.
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Old 10th September 2003, 06:40 PM   #17
Kees is offline Kees  Netherlands
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What do you mean by wear? As as far I know transistors get damaged by overloading them, or by mechanical stress do tue temperature variations.

The main problem that I have is that many people have a preference for a design based upon vague feelings.
The comparison I'm asking for is different types of amplifiers , all are build in a proper way with proper pcb design.

Every type of amplifier has it's strengths and it's weaknesses. Unfortunately I don't have all these amplifiers available for listening tests.
When I look to e.g. the JLH design i have to say that it is simple.
Therefore it is perfect for DIY by people without electronics skills.

However my feeling is that a discrete opamp design with differential stages, current mirrors ,cascoding transistors were necessary, low impedance voltage amp output , should be superiour.
The problem, it's just a feeling...

As far as I can see, in the commercial world, the tube amplifiers tend be simple, and the solid state amplifiers tend to be complex, like Krell, Mark Levinson and Jef Rowland. Although Pass may be simple.
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Old 10th September 2003, 07:07 PM   #18
DrG is offline DrG  South Africa
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Quote:
The comparison I'm asking for is different types of amplifiers , all are build in a proper way with proper pcb design.
Kees, this is pie in the sky. I doubt anyone here has built one of each. And even if they did any comparison would be subjectively clouded by their own priorities and frame of reference. So you have to answer the question for yourself as to which design suits you best. Nobody can do it for you. Each circuit has merit in it's own right, pro's and con's.

MikeW made a good suggestion about the Krell clone. He may be right except that it could be a slightly advanced project considering you said you had little experience. So a kit makes more sense as a first attempt, as I see it.

And whatever you do don't listen to Upupa Epops... we all have our limitations but his comments leave me speechless! He has zero insight.

Quote:
As far as I can see, in the commercial world, the tube amplifiers tend be simple, and the solid state amplifiers tend to be complex, like Krell, Mark Levinson and Jef Rowland. Although Pass may be simple.
That is not necessarily so - take a little peek at an Audio Research tube circuit or Circlotron OTL schematic: not so simple. And as far as the Krell goes, the KSA100 circuit is a pretty straightforward dual differential design. No magic.

Most perceived circuit "complexity" tends to reside in the protection circuitry and regulated power supplies, in my experience.
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Old 10th September 2003, 08:06 PM   #19
jcarr is offline jcarr  United States
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Kees:

>The comparison I'm asking for is different types of amplifiers, all are build in a proper way with proper pcb design.<

I wonder if there is such a thing as "build in a proper way" or "proper pcb design". There is just as much room for individuality and creativity in board layout and physical construction as there is in schematics, and dedicated pcb layout designers spend decades honing their craft.

Many pcb designers would agree that there is such a thing as stupid or incompetent board design, but OTOH, it appears to me that no matter how carefully a board has been designed, it is always possible to improve on it if you are willing to allocate enough time, money and intelligence to the problem.

In my experience, if you retain the same schematic but use a different board layout, it may be a good idea to re-visit your measures for stabilization and offset; and be prepared for some of the resulting measurements to change.

I find it appropriate to consider the board layout and physical construction as an inseparable part of the schematic.

hth, jonathan carr
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Old 10th September 2003, 08:16 PM   #20
MikeW is offline MikeW  United States
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Wink Wears

I built two P3A one with Sankens one with On-Semi. I ran them off the same power supply. For a week I switched back and forth. At first the Sankens sounded opened and detailed. After listening for a while I had to turn the music off. It seemed to bright. The On-Semi seemed much smoother and could listen to them for longer periods of time. You have to find what you like.
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