That would be very hard to quantify objectively, if not logistically impossible. Firstly you would have to either evaluate all 4 comparatively or find someone who has and who has similar amplifier 'taste' as you do... The only other comparison possible would be by way of specs which may have zero connection with ultimate sound quality. So, you're stuck with a question which has no easy answer.
I would advise that you define your needs in terms of power and expense. Then go with your gut feel... you won't be "wrong" no matter which you choose. The only other alternative is to solicit the opinions of hordes of forum members and follow the "trend"...
I would advise that you define your needs in terms of power and expense. Then go with your gut feel... you won't be "wrong" no matter which you choose. The only other alternative is to solicit the opinions of hordes of forum members and follow the "trend"...
This question is like what beer is the best: Zeunertz, Mariestad, Kaltenberg, Pripps, Falcon, maybe wine is better?
All designs work but they are in some cases very different. I'll guess you have to gather opinions and deside for yourself.
I have no problems with Crescendo-like amps and I suppose the Leach amp is similar. Am also in the process of making a Gainclone, which I never have listened to.
All designs work but they are in some cases very different. I'll guess you have to gather opinions and deside for yourself.
I have no problems with Crescendo-like amps and I suppose the Leach amp is similar. Am also in the process of making a Gainclone, which I never have listened to.
We speak about Crescendo Millennium Edition which was presented in Elektor magazine 2001-4.
PCBs found here:
http://www.elektor-electronics.co.uk/dl/details/dl0401.htm
PCBs found here:
http://www.elektor-electronics.co.uk/dl/details/dl0401.htm
Selections of beers
Hi guis, our friend Kees can try "taste of beer" and he can clear answer before. You are telling him "try and you will see", but you, like experienced men, know, how many times after wrong beer head crack
. After many headache he will knows "what is the best", but he can't go by this way, he can "short way to the near of heaven" 
. In my life I have build maybe thousand of amplifiers in many configurations, many amplifiers I have heard and tested for our magazines and I can say, if I see circuit diagram of any amplifier, I can tell, how it will be sounded ( gentlemen Per Anders, Jan Dupont, John Curl and probably many others knows, what I mean 
). Is certainly true, how they says, that "personel true" is for every man unique, but it will goes later. So Kees : if you realize some of requriments ( same power supply for every amplifiers, same voltage gain and all amplifiers will be "tuned for good stability", you will hear following : Crescendo - objective much more clear trebles and sujective less bass - it is ideal amp for jazz, folk and classical music. Krell - subjective more bass and not so clear trebles like Cresc. It is amp for rock and pop. JHL : similar like Krell on bass, treble more distorted (quasicomplementary configuratoin is not ideal for low distortion ) - using the same like by Krell. Pass : here is many fans of Mr. Pass, becouse its easy to build this amplifiers and they maybe will be object, but this amplifiers have big "sound coloration", especialy types for DIY 
Some people like it, but I not, my ideal is absolutely clear sound which have probably ( I do not hear it, but I saw patent) now Halcro, my "State of Art". This is end of my short "palete of amplifier sounds".
Hi guis, our friend Kees can try "taste of beer" and he can clear answer before. You are telling him "try and you will see", but you, like experienced men, know, how many times after wrong beer head crack
. After many headache he will knows "what is the best", but he can't go by this way, he can "short way to the near of heaven" . In my life I have build maybe thousand of amplifiers in many configurations, many amplifiers I have heard and tested for our magazines and I can say, if I see circuit diagram of any amplifier, I can tell, how it will be sounded ( gentlemen Per Anders, Jan Dupont, John Curl and probably many others knows, what I mean ). Is certainly true, how they says, that "personel true" is for every man unique, but it will goes later. So Kees : if you realize some of requriments ( same power supply for every amplifiers, same voltage gain and all amplifiers will be "tuned for good stability", you will hear following : Crescendo - objective much more clear trebles and sujective less bass - it is ideal amp for jazz, folk and classical music. Krell - subjective more bass and not so clear trebles like Cresc. It is amp for rock and pop. JHL : similar like Krell on bass, treble more distorted (quasicomplementary configuratoin is not ideal for low distortion ) - using the same like by Krell. Pass : here is many fans of Mr. Pass, becouse its easy to build this amplifiers and they maybe will be object, but this amplifiers have big "sound coloration", especialy types for DIY Some people like it, but I not, my ideal is absolutely clear sound which have probably ( I do not hear it, but I saw patent) now Halcro, my "State of Art". This is end of my short "palete of amplifier sounds".Upupa Epops, forgive my directness, but I believe a lot of what you say may be absolute poopoo deluxo...
I don't buy it. There are endless variables involved and you would have us believe that notwithstanding differences in speakers, sources, cables and rooms not to mention that every kitbuilder is going to use different transformers, resistors, caps and semicon vendors, you are capable of predicting the sound character of an amp...??!!
Forgive me Mr Moderator, but this sounds a lot like the purest form of distilled bull$hit I have ever heard.
I don't buy it. There are endless variables involved and you would have us believe that notwithstanding differences in speakers, sources, cables and rooms not to mention that every kitbuilder is going to use different transformers, resistors, caps and semicon vendors, you are capable of predicting the sound character of an amp...??!!
Forgive me Mr Moderator, but this sounds a lot like the purest form of distilled bull$hit I have ever heard.
About 10 years ago I listened to a massive DIY amplifier with 8 Sanken output transistors per channel, very large capacitors in the power supply and very big toroid's.
The guy who made it did not want to tell anything on the design.
The loudspeaker that we listened to was a predecessor of the speaker of following link http://www.remo.nl/m4.htm
The amplifier was controlling the speakers perfectly and could go extremely loud. It was amazing how loud it could play without irritatating or hurting your ears. The difference with a Mission Cyrus and a NAD 2x 50W was VERY HUGE. I never heard this quality from a commercial amplifier up to EUR 2500,- or more.
I have a feeling that a Krell clone with:
- fully symetric design
- overkilled power supply
- regulated power supply for the voltage amp
- Sanken high speed output transistors
is the the best way to go for clean, powerfull, wide soundstage
The guy who made it did not want to tell anything on the design.
The loudspeaker that we listened to was a predecessor of the speaker of following link http://www.remo.nl/m4.htm
The amplifier was controlling the speakers perfectly and could go extremely loud. It was amazing how loud it could play without irritatating or hurting your ears. The difference with a Mission Cyrus and a NAD 2x 50W was VERY HUGE. I never heard this quality from a commercial amplifier up to EUR 2500,- or more.
I have a feeling that a Krell clone with:
- fully symetric design
- overkilled power supply
- regulated power supply for the voltage amp
- Sanken high speed output transistors
is the the best way to go for clean, powerfull, wide soundstage
DrG said:
Well, for once, I can will agree with DrG. I can built 5 amps using same circuit, yet they all will sound differently. When I hear a person saying how the amp sounds, just looking at the schematic, it can indeed sound like the purest form of distilled bull$hit.
PS: What exactly is coloration? Is it a sound that you are not used to, or maybe someting that is not on your "palette" of sounds, or maybe something that simply doesn't match your system? Because even a live event can be "colored" by the actual concert hall, not to mention the recording equipment.
What do you mean by wear? As as far I know transistors get damaged by overloading them, or by mechanical stress do tue temperature variations.
The main problem that I have is that many people have a preference for a design based upon vague feelings.
The comparison I'm asking for is different types of amplifiers , all are build in a proper way with proper pcb design.
Every type of amplifier has it's strengths and it's weaknesses. Unfortunately I don't have all these amplifiers available for listening tests.
When I look to e.g. the JLH design i have to say that it is simple.
Therefore it is perfect for DIY by people without electronics skills.
However my feeling is that a discrete opamp design with differential stages, current mirrors ,cascoding transistors were necessary, low impedance voltage amp output , should be superiour.
The problem, it's just a feeling...
As far as I can see, in the commercial world, the tube amplifiers tend be simple, and the solid state amplifiers tend to be complex, like Krell, Mark Levinson and Jef Rowland. Although Pass may be simple.
The main problem that I have is that many people have a preference for a design based upon vague feelings.
The comparison I'm asking for is different types of amplifiers , all are build in a proper way with proper pcb design.
Every type of amplifier has it's strengths and it's weaknesses. Unfortunately I don't have all these amplifiers available for listening tests.
When I look to e.g. the JLH design i have to say that it is simple.
Therefore it is perfect for DIY by people without electronics skills.
However my feeling is that a discrete opamp design with differential stages, current mirrors ,cascoding transistors were necessary, low impedance voltage amp output , should be superiour.
The problem, it's just a feeling...
As far as I can see, in the commercial world, the tube amplifiers tend be simple, and the solid state amplifiers tend to be complex, like Krell, Mark Levinson and Jef Rowland. Although Pass may be simple.
Kees, this is pie in the sky. I doubt anyone here has built one of each. And even if they did any comparison would be subjectively clouded by their own priorities and frame of reference. So you have to answer the question for yourself as to which design suits you best. Nobody can do it for you. Each circuit has merit in it's own right, pro's and con's.
MikeW made a good suggestion about the Krell clone. He may be right except that it could be a slightly advanced project considering you said you had little experience. So a kit makes more sense as a first attempt, as I see it.
And whatever you do don't listen to Upupa Epops... we all have our limitations but his comments leave me speechless! He has zero insight.
That is not necessarily so - take a little peek at an Audio Research tube circuit or Circlotron OTL schematic: not so simple. And as far as the Krell goes, the KSA100 circuit is a pretty straightforward dual differential design. No magic.
Most perceived circuit "complexity" tends to reside in the protection circuitry and regulated power supplies, in my experience.
Kees:
>The comparison I'm asking for is different types of amplifiers, all are build in a proper way with proper pcb design.<
I wonder if there is such a thing as "build in a proper way" or "proper pcb design". There is just as much room for individuality and creativity in board layout and physical construction as there is in schematics, and dedicated pcb layout designers spend decades honing their craft.
Many pcb designers would agree that there is such a thing as stupid or incompetent board design, but OTOH, it appears to me that no matter how carefully a board has been designed, it is always possible to improve on it if you are willing to allocate enough time, money and intelligence to the problem.
In my experience, if you retain the same schematic but use a different board layout, it may be a good idea to re-visit your measures for stabilization and offset; and be prepared for some of the resulting measurements to change.
I find it appropriate to consider the board layout and physical construction as an inseparable part of the schematic.
hth, jonathan carr
>The comparison I'm asking for is different types of amplifiers, all are build in a proper way with proper pcb design.<
I wonder if there is such a thing as "build in a proper way" or "proper pcb design". There is just as much room for individuality and creativity in board layout and physical construction as there is in schematics, and dedicated pcb layout designers spend decades honing their craft.
Many pcb designers would agree that there is such a thing as stupid or incompetent board design, but OTOH, it appears to me that no matter how carefully a board has been designed, it is always possible to improve on it if you are willing to allocate enough time, money and intelligence to the problem.
In my experience, if you retain the same schematic but use a different board layout, it may be a good idea to re-visit your measures for stabilization and offset; and be prepared for some of the resulting measurements to change.
I find it appropriate to consider the board layout and physical construction as an inseparable part of the schematic.
hth, jonathan carr
Wears
I built two P3A one with Sankens one with On-Semi. I ran them off the same power supply. For a week I switched back and forth. At first the Sankens sounded opened and detailed. After listening for a while I had to turn the music off. It seemed to bright. The On-Semi seemed much smoother and could listen to them for longer periods of time. You have to find what you like.
I built two P3A one with Sankens one with On-Semi. I ran them off the same power supply. For a week I switched back and forth. At first the Sankens sounded opened and detailed. After listening for a while I had to turn the music off. It seemed to bright. The On-Semi seemed much smoother and could listen to them for longer periods of time. You have to find what you like.
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