Hi all, I'm reading this interesting thread.
I already have a large number of pieces, 2 transfos (200VA/35V), 2 unreg power supplies (≈+/-50V), source selection board, soft-start, heat-sinks ...
I wanted to build 2 SKA amps in dual mono, but finally I think I'll go with The Wire.
1) I add myself to the GB list and OPC contact me for the payment?
I'd like to see more wiring diagrams, rookie inside, 1st amp build
I also have a question, my relay based source selection board is designed in dual mono, no problem, but I would add a volume control Dantimax RelVol1C RelVol1 & 3
2) Can I keep my separate signal masses (dual mono) with this volume board control?
3) For the attenuator resistors, 20K value is ok?
Thanks a lot guys
For question1, check post #1 in this thread
Hi Manudrz,
Most of your questions were covered by kiwik and rsavas, but I'd like to clarify the dual mono thing.
You might need to be a little more clear about your goals in going dual mono. That setup offers two possible benefits:
1. With dual mono amps, you can place each amplifier very close to its respective loudspeaker, thereby shortening the length of speaker cable and improving the damping factor of the amplifier/speaker combo.
2. There is the potential with a fully dual mono design to achieve greater channel separation or reduced crosstalk.
Reason 1 is only realized if you actually do place the amplifiers near the speakers. You lose this benefit if both amps still sit on an equipment rack between the speakers.
Reason 2 can be misleading, in that a properly designed amp, source and preamp can achieve crosstalk levels low enough to dramatically exceed any plausible physical transducer arrangement. 120dB of channel separation can be achieved even with a shared ground, and it's difficult to make the argument that going beyond that is beneficial.
If you do really want to use separate grounds all the way through, then you will need to think of how this can be achieved in your source, preamp, and amplifiers. The amplifiers are the easy part, and The Wire LME amps can easily be built fully dual mono as long as you build two full supplies.
As a side question, how much power do you think you need? Perhaps the LPUHP or the "Hot Rodded" version of it with higher rails would be a better choice?
Cheers,
Owen
Most of your questions were covered by kiwik and rsavas, but I'd like to clarify the dual mono thing.
You might need to be a little more clear about your goals in going dual mono. That setup offers two possible benefits:
1. With dual mono amps, you can place each amplifier very close to its respective loudspeaker, thereby shortening the length of speaker cable and improving the damping factor of the amplifier/speaker combo.
2. There is the potential with a fully dual mono design to achieve greater channel separation or reduced crosstalk.
Reason 1 is only realized if you actually do place the amplifiers near the speakers. You lose this benefit if both amps still sit on an equipment rack between the speakers.
Reason 2 can be misleading, in that a properly designed amp, source and preamp can achieve crosstalk levels low enough to dramatically exceed any plausible physical transducer arrangement. 120dB of channel separation can be achieved even with a shared ground, and it's difficult to make the argument that going beyond that is beneficial.
If you do really want to use separate grounds all the way through, then you will need to think of how this can be achieved in your source, preamp, and amplifiers. The amplifiers are the easy part, and The Wire LME amps can easily be built fully dual mono as long as you build two full supplies.
As a side question, how much power do you think you need? Perhaps the LPUHP or the "Hot Rodded" version of it with higher rails would be a better choice?
Cheers,
Owen
Damned, answered by the Boss himself
Ok, so I just want to make a dual mono integrated power amp. Everything in the same box. I've got most of the parts, including two +-50V unreg PSU. I just need your amps and the remote volume control.
http://imageshack.com/a/img41/3971/amplir.jpg
My idea, perhaps stupid, was to keep separate grounds on all the signal path. But as you say, the sources surely don't have this skill. And you are right, I've just check my IVY3 output stage of my Buffalo3se and L/R grounds are shared... Did I mention I'm a rookie ?
1) Is it still better to have two separate power supplies, even if the grounds are shared elsewhere in the signal path?
About your question, I think The Wire is the most suitable to me. I own now a Rotel RA06, which drives B&W 684, but I think I'll soon replace them by true 3-way, perhaps sealed ones with a 10" bass driver.
I just want the best amp, because I don't think I want to redo another one every 2 or 3 years...
2) I'd like to know if the Dantimax RelVol1C volume control (with 20K resistors) would fit the Wire perfectly ?
3) When will your PCB be available again?
Thanks a lot for your time, cheers.
Manu
Ok, so I just want to make a dual mono integrated power amp. Everything in the same box. I've got most of the parts, including two +-50V unreg PSU. I just need your amps and the remote volume control.
http://imageshack.com/a/img41/3971/amplir.jpg
My idea, perhaps stupid, was to keep separate grounds on all the signal path. But as you say, the sources surely don't have this skill. And you are right, I've just check my IVY3 output stage of my Buffalo3se and L/R grounds are shared... Did I mention I'm a rookie ?
1) Is it still better to have two separate power supplies, even if the grounds are shared elsewhere in the signal path?
About your question, I think The Wire is the most suitable to me. I own now a Rotel RA06, which drives B&W 684, but I think I'll soon replace them by true 3-way, perhaps sealed ones with a 10" bass driver.
I just want the best amp, because I don't think I want to redo another one every 2 or 3 years...
2) I'd like to know if the Dantimax RelVol1C volume control (with 20K resistors) would fit the Wire perfectly ?
3) When will your PCB be available again?
Thanks a lot for your time, cheers.
Manu
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And just to prove I'm not crazy, look at the design of this guy, a "little" higher skills than me...
http://www.homecinema-fr.com/forum/ressources/image/134161
He uses 100R at the only place where grounds are commons, in the DC protection board K4700.
Le sujet Montage Zenquito. - Page 57 du forum Amplification sur Homecinema-fr.com - 29805212 - 1056
http://www.homecinema-fr.com/forum/ressources/image/134161
He uses 100R at the only place where grounds are commons, in the DC protection board K4700.
Le sujet Montage Zenquito. - Page 57 du forum Amplification sur Homecinema-fr.com - 29805212 - 1056
Hi Manu,
To answer your questions:
1) Is it still better to have two separate power supplies, even if the grounds are shared elsewhere in the signal path?
Absolutely. Using dual supplies will give you an improvement in channel separation as long as you implement the common ground correctly. Use good grounding techniques (covered elsewhere) and it will be a great arrangement giving exceptional crosstalk performance.
2) I'd like to know if the Dantimax RelVol1C volume control (with 20K resistors) would fit the Wire perfectly ?
If you're planning to run SE inputs, then it will work perfectly. If you plan on running balanced inputs, then you will find that the amp's low input impedance will require a buffer between the output of the volume control and the input of the amp.
3) When will your PCB be available again?
Should be back in stock in about a month. Demand outstripped supply on this particular board, so I need to order more.
Cheers,
Owen
To answer your questions:
1) Is it still better to have two separate power supplies, even if the grounds are shared elsewhere in the signal path?
Absolutely. Using dual supplies will give you an improvement in channel separation as long as you implement the common ground correctly. Use good grounding techniques (covered elsewhere) and it will be a great arrangement giving exceptional crosstalk performance.
2) I'd like to know if the Dantimax RelVol1C volume control (with 20K resistors) would fit the Wire perfectly ?
If you're planning to run SE inputs, then it will work perfectly. If you plan on running balanced inputs, then you will find that the amp's low input impedance will require a buffer between the output of the volume control and the input of the amp.
3) When will your PCB be available again?
Should be back in stock in about a month. Demand outstripped supply on this particular board, so I need to order more.
Cheers,
Owen
Damned, answered by the Boss himself
Ok, so I just want to make a dual mono integrated power amp. Everything in the same box. I've got most of the parts, including two +-50V unreg PSU. I just need your amps and the remote volume control.
http://imageshack.com/a/img41/3971/amplir.jpg
My idea, perhaps stupid, was to keep separate grounds on all the signal path. But as you say, the sources surely don't have this skill. And you are right, I've just check my IVY3 output stage of my Buffalo3se and L/R grounds are shared... Did I mention I'm a rookie ?
1) Is it still better to have two separate power supplies, even if the grounds are shared elsewhere in the signal path?
About your question, I think The Wire is the most suitable to me. I own now a Rotel RA06, which drives B&W 684, but I think I'll soon replace them by true 3-way, perhaps sealed ones with a 10" bass driver.
I just want the best amp, because I don't think I want to redo another one every 2 or 3 years...
2) I'd like to know if the Dantimax RelVol1C volume control (with 20K resistors) would fit the Wire perfectly ?
3) When will your PCB be available again?
Thanks a lot for your time, cheers.
Manu
Hi guys,
as the ALF16x20W were not deliverable fore several months, I took the ALF16x16W with lover voltage. As I use the amps only for midds and hights I don't really need a lot of power. My plan is to use one ps for the outputs and one ps for the ICs. I'd like to know your recommandation for the ps's. Which voltage should I use?
I first wanted to use my Hypex SMPS with 65V for the output, but should then take 75V for the ICs. As I might have to use voltage multiplier for that applikation I asked myself, if there are better ways to go...
Thanks,
Stammheim
as the ALF16x20W were not deliverable fore several months, I took the ALF16x16W with lover voltage. As I use the amps only for midds and hights I don't really need a lot of power. My plan is to use one ps for the outputs and one ps for the ICs. I'd like to know your recommandation for the ps's. Which voltage should I use?
I first wanted to use my Hypex SMPS with 65V for the output, but should then take 75V for the ICs. As I might have to use voltage multiplier for that applikation I asked myself, if there are better ways to go...
Thanks,
Stammheim
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Think about it! a "wire" class amp (ultra-low distortion) and a smps? Are they a good mix? I say not, but that is only my opinion. I guess you have to try it to find out. Best is to try out both a smps and a traditional.
IDNR if Owen has posted his listening impressions and measurements using a smps?
As a minimum, use some inductors/ferrites in series and possibly followed by a cap multiplier ckt to power the LME49830.
I am going to use a few old Pioneer sx-1050 & sx-1250 transformer toroids that I picked up on the net, for about $50ea.
Bought new caps 4x22mF/80V & bridges
The sx-1250 is a dual secondary,
The sx-1050 is a single secondary, and will use the sx-1050 linear reg for the LME49830.
I do ? if a single pair of out devices can handle a sx-1250 transformer? the sx-1050 is a safer bet.
Putting one setup in a old Sansui G-7500, with new heatsinks.
Good luck
Rick
IDNR if Owen has posted his listening impressions and measurements using a smps?
As a minimum, use some inductors/ferrites in series and possibly followed by a cap multiplier ckt to power the LME49830.
I am going to use a few old Pioneer sx-1050 & sx-1250 transformer toroids that I picked up on the net, for about $50ea.
Bought new caps 4x22mF/80V & bridges
The sx-1250 is a dual secondary,
The sx-1050 is a single secondary, and will use the sx-1050 linear reg for the LME49830.
I do ? if a single pair of out devices can handle a sx-1250 transformer? the sx-1050 is a safer bet.
Putting one setup in a old Sansui G-7500, with new heatsinks.
Good luck
Rick
Attachments
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Owen has posted measurements with 2 or 3 different SMPS. Regulated SMPS performance was actually very impressive. They're posted earlier in this thread, search for DPS-600 I guess but I don't have time right now (it's work time in Aus).
Regards,
Chris
From the measurements that Owen posted and the power I needed I decided the DPS600 SMPS was the best option.
I've got the boards soldered and waiting for me to test but my speaker project has taken over so haven't done any listening with them yet.
I'm un-interested in sighted listening tests/comparisons. I reviewed the measurement data that Owen presented for the linear supply, DPS400, DPS600 and decided that the opportunity to get the custom DPS600 with low power rails for the input stage and separate rails for the output stage was just too appealing. It also allowed me to pursue the option of building the 4 amplifier channels into one enclosure.
For some background/context, I am building DSP powered active speakers. It's been a long project but I'm just building as time/money allows. LPUHP powering B&C DE250 in a 8in tractrix waveguide (this waveguide is the one I am most concerned about for system performance before having heard it all running, will wait and see how that turns out) and DPS600 + LME49830 The Wire Class AB driving 2 x Peerless 8in nomex woofers per side. MTM in sealed enclosures, only running down to ~80Hz with 'stereo' subwoofers powered separately (Aussie Amps 300W Class AB). Speakers and DSP are coming along ... I needed speaker design to be reasonably compact to fit with requirements of my better half since this system lives in my living room. But I wanted something that could be pretty unconstrained thermally (hence two 8in woofers for efficiency) and never going to be starved for power. The voltage of the DPS600 means I've probably got headroom to drive my speakers to 116dB SPL reasonably comfortably (from memory xmax of the woofer is the limit but it comes at ~300-350W RMS into 4R which is within the scope of what's possible with 55/65V power supplied to the amps). Later I expect to be using a few of Owen's DACs for the digital to analogue conversion too, complete The Wire system
Regards,
Chris
Hochopeper, I indeed could have told the same story...
Because I need four LME49830 amps, I'd have to use 4 DPSx00. That is definitely to much, so I'd like to use one ps for the output of all amps and one ps for the IC of all amps.
I don't care if I use the Hypex SMPS600, which has also really good measurements (I wondered, why nobody else made some tests with it instead of the here tested other ps' s) or buy some new transformers for it, but I want to be sure to get the optimum solution. As my woofers are powered by some D-amps, I assume that a linear ps should also do a good job, as whether there isn't much power needed nor I need frequencies below 200Hz.
I also read through the whole thread and surely miss some informations, as I'm now at page 82... a lot of stuff...
Evenhow... I'm not sure about the voltage and the optimum combination for the outputs and the IC's, as transformers with less VA are not to get with more than 2x35, or 2x40V, what is not enough for this application using my Hypex SMPS600. So using linear supplies for both I'd have to take transformers with 2x25V for the outputs, which is less than I wanted.
Another question:
The cap multiplier is a good hint, but I'haven't found any schemata for more than +-35VDC. Would anybody share a schemata for such ps / cap multiplier / LC-filter for this application?
Because I need four LME49830 amps, I'd have to use 4 DPSx00. That is definitely to much, so I'd like to use one ps for the output of all amps and one ps for the IC of all amps.
I don't care if I use the Hypex SMPS600, which has also really good measurements (I wondered, why nobody else made some tests with it instead of the here tested other ps' s) or buy some new transformers for it, but I want to be sure to get the optimum solution. As my woofers are powered by some D-amps, I assume that a linear ps should also do a good job, as whether there isn't much power needed nor I need frequencies below 200Hz.
I also read through the whole thread and surely miss some informations, as I'm now at page 82... a lot of stuff...
Evenhow... I'm not sure about the voltage and the optimum combination for the outputs and the IC's, as transformers with less VA are not to get with more than 2x35, or 2x40V, what is not enough for this application using my Hypex SMPS600. So using linear supplies for both I'd have to take transformers with 2x25V for the outputs, which is less than I wanted.
Another question:
The cap multiplier is a good hint, but I'haven't found any schemata for more than +-35VDC. Would anybody share a schemata for such ps / cap multiplier / LC-filter for this application?