I just received it yesterday.
Powers up(idle lights come on).
No sound out of channel one.
LOW sound out of channel 2 with my mixer pretty maxed. No additional leds light on the amp, though.
Driving it with a cd player through my gemini dj mixer.
I haven't opened it up, yet(it was late and I didn't want to get sucked into an all nighter).
I've repaired all kinds of car amps(was always the outputs).
This is my 1st attempt at some home equip.
I d/l'd the schem from wards(noting the error indicated in another ak thread).
Given the behavior, can I rule anything out and narrow it down to a particular haystack?
Thanks for any advice,
Steve
Powers up(idle lights come on).
No sound out of channel one.
LOW sound out of channel 2 with my mixer pretty maxed. No additional leds light on the amp, though.
Driving it with a cd player through my gemini dj mixer.
I haven't opened it up, yet(it was late and I didn't want to get sucked into an all nighter).
I've repaired all kinds of car amps(was always the outputs).
This is my 1st attempt at some home equip.
I d/l'd the schem from wards(noting the error indicated in another ak thread).
Given the behavior, can I rule anything out and narrow it down to a particular haystack?
Thanks for any advice,
Steve
When you power it on do you hear the relay click roughly 7-10 seconds after power up? If not you have a DC fault of some type.
No Leds no signal out. Pretty straight forward amplifier fully symmetrical in design. I'll look for a schematic as I have one around here someplace. I bought two 2200's of ebay years back both blown up. You can go thru one in several hours and totally rebuild it which would be the way to go considering the age of it.
No Leds no signal out. Pretty straight forward amplifier fully symmetrical in design. I'll look for a schematic as I have one around here someplace. I bought two 2200's of ebay years back both blown up. You can go thru one in several hours and totally rebuild it which would be the way to go considering the age of it.
Good point
You might as well replace ALL the caps as well as the transistors and you will have something that will live for years. The dual diff transistors are very hard to come by anymore but ECG does have them. With respect to the rest of the transistors do not use ECG or NTE. Replace the outputs with MJ15024 and MJ15025's. Use the ON semi's for the driver transistors also.
You might as well replace ALL the caps as well as the transistors and you will have something that will live for years. The dual diff transistors are very hard to come by anymore but ECG does have them. With respect to the rest of the transistors do not use ECG or NTE. Replace the outputs with MJ15024 and MJ15025's. Use the ON semi's for the driver transistors also.
No relay action. I saw two burnt resistors(1/4 watt 120 and 330 ohm) on the input board on the non-functional channel.
I'm going to replace those and see what it does. I think I might still have issues with the p/s or output section unless it is in protect(hence lack of relay activity) due to the input fault.
What type/brand of resistor should I look for?
Thanks,
Steve
Schematic at http://akdatabase.com/AKview/albums/userpics/10004/SAE 2200 Schematic.pdf (part of audiokarma.net)
Those two resistors are part of the current limiting circuit, with no relay probably means that the outputs on that side are probably shorted, the current limit resistor is probably gone, and the emitter resistors (.22 white blocks) may be open. There may be other parts bad - SAE's usually take out a lot of parts when they go, and best to make sure all bad components are replaced before applying power. When applying power, should get a variac and current monitor, or dim bulb tester (incandescent lamp in series with the AC going in) to prevent damage if something isn't right. Good luck.
Those two resistors are part of the current limiting circuit, with no relay probably means that the outputs on that side are probably shorted, the current limit resistor is probably gone, and the emitter resistors (.22 white blocks) may be open. There may be other parts bad - SAE's usually take out a lot of parts when they go, and best to make sure all bad components are replaced before applying power. When applying power, should get a variac and current monitor, or dim bulb tester (incandescent lamp in series with the AC going in) to prevent damage if something isn't right. Good luck.
These are the components I counted on the three boards. I'm going to price them all. I need to find the SAE part number list(I stumbled on it but now can't seem to find it). I have a very small transistor(part number: 11-0154) that blew on the output board. It touches the heatsink and has thermal paste on it.
Output Board:
4 .2ohm 5w block resistors(back-side of board)
2 500? Trim pots(back-side of board)
4 .1uF 250V block caps
4 IN4004 diodes
2 11-0154 transistors
2 10ohm 2w axial resistors
2 2.2ohm 2w axial res…
2 2.2k .25w res
2 1k .25w res
2 .01uF caps
2 MJ15024(recommended sub)
2 MJ15025(recommended sub)
Power Supply Board:
2 IN4004 diode
6 11-0098 diodes
1 1000uF 10V electrolytic
2 ELNA 10000uF 63V electrolytic
4 100k .25w resistors
1 10k .25w resistor
1 150ohm .25w res
1 680ohm 2w
2 .1uF block resistors
2 11-0044 transistors
1 11-0117 transistor
1 11-0154 transistor
1 220uF 16V electrolytic
2 100uF 10V electrolytic
1 10uF 50V electrolytic
2 1uF 50 V electrolytic
Driver Board:
2 11-0150 Transistors
2 11-0151 Transistors
4 10ohm .5w resistors
6 200pF caps
2 62ohm .5w res
12 IN4148 Diodes
4 10k .25w res
4 120ohm .25w res
12 100uF 10v electrolytic
2 11-0044 trans
2 11-0117 trans
4 .01uF caps
4 330ohm .25w res
6 10ohm .25w res
2 .001uF caps(skinny green)
2 11-0083A trans
2 11-0080A trans
2 5.1k .5w res
4 68ohm .25w res
4 680ohm .25w res
4 150k .25w res
2 11-0155 trans
2 11-0154 trans
8 22pF cap
2 100uF 25V electrolytic
4 3.9k .5w res
2 240ohm .5 res
4 15k .25w res
2 z-51V diodes
2 11-0174 trans
2 11-0175 trans
4 1.8k .25w res
4 100k .25w res
2 1k .25w res
2 330k .25w res
4 .1uF block caps
Output Board:
4 .2ohm 5w block resistors(back-side of board)
2 500? Trim pots(back-side of board)
4 .1uF 250V block caps
4 IN4004 diodes
2 11-0154 transistors
2 10ohm 2w axial resistors
2 2.2ohm 2w axial res…
2 2.2k .25w res
2 1k .25w res
2 .01uF caps
2 MJ15024(recommended sub)
2 MJ15025(recommended sub)
Power Supply Board:
2 IN4004 diode
6 11-0098 diodes
1 1000uF 10V electrolytic
2 ELNA 10000uF 63V electrolytic
4 100k .25w resistors
1 10k .25w resistor
1 150ohm .25w res
1 680ohm 2w
2 .1uF block resistors
2 11-0044 transistors
1 11-0117 transistor
1 11-0154 transistor
1 220uF 16V electrolytic
2 100uF 10V electrolytic
1 10uF 50V electrolytic
2 1uF 50 V electrolytic
Driver Board:
2 11-0150 Transistors
2 11-0151 Transistors
4 10ohm .5w resistors
6 200pF caps
2 62ohm .5w res
12 IN4148 Diodes
4 10k .25w res
4 120ohm .25w res
12 100uF 10v electrolytic
2 11-0044 trans
2 11-0117 trans
4 .01uF caps
4 330ohm .25w res
6 10ohm .25w res
2 .001uF caps(skinny green)
2 11-0083A trans
2 11-0080A trans
2 5.1k .5w res
4 68ohm .25w res
4 680ohm .25w res
4 150k .25w res
2 11-0155 trans
2 11-0154 trans
8 22pF cap
2 100uF 25V electrolytic
4 3.9k .5w res
2 240ohm .5 res
4 15k .25w res
2 z-51V diodes
2 11-0174 trans
2 11-0175 trans
4 1.8k .25w res
4 100k .25w res
2 1k .25w res
2 330k .25w res
4 .1uF block caps
OK. I found the SAE x-ref: SAE Audio Repair Tech Info - Part Number Cross Reference Table
A few of the transistors are obsolete and multiple subs are available. I will drill down my info when I get home to isolate those and ask for an opinion on which I should get.
Should I be looking at 5% metal film resistors for my .25w and .5watters?
Thanks,
Steve
A few of the transistors are obsolete and multiple subs are available. I will drill down my info when I get home to isolate those and ask for an opinion on which I should get.
Should I be looking at 5% metal film resistors for my .25w and .5watters?
Thanks,
Steve
I'll be monitoring your progress kapnk, as I have a 2200 that has blown up a few times but is working now. I bought it new back in the day and plan to do a complete overhaul on it now that I have a few working power amps to listen to whilst it is down. If I can help with pictures or simple voltage measurements let me know and I will do my best to assist. ( :
Before you go replacing every darn thing on the board why don't you beg or borrow a VOM meter. It is very simple to test the junctions of transistors and even simpler to test resistors. Open up any ECG or NTE catalog and there is a short course on checking transistors. Google checking transistors and I'm sure you will find something there also. This is not rocket science and anyone capable of using a meter should be able to repair this primitive amp.
There is another thread if you bothered looking... Repairing SAE 2200 started around 2002
I suggest that you read thru it also.
There is another thread if you bothered looking... Repairing SAE 2200 started around 2002
I suggest that you read thru it also.
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I've "bothered" to look for and read all of them. I have a Fluke 70 and am very capable with it. I have also known how to check transistors for about 25 years. This is just one of my many hobbies. The amp is so simple, I thought I would compile a parts list that might help others in the future. The list is so short, I thought I would price a complete components replacement. All of this information is available in a few places. I'm just trying to get it into one place. I think the components will be cheap. I really don't see myself desoldering/soldering all of them. But you never know.
Steve
Sorry about that.
From your earlier posts it didn't sound as if you had much experience. My suggestion is relace all the electrolytics on the driver boards as well as the small transistors (TO92's) replace the bias transistor on the heat sink as well as the outputs and insulators. I'm making this suggestion because of the age of the amplifier and the fact that I'm sure you do not want it to nickle and dime you to death in the future. Remember to check all the diodes also that are on the driver board. Remember that ther is a missprint on the schematic if my memory is correct. When your done either employ the light bulb trick or use a variac just to be safe.
To answer your question there is no answer as to what is going to need to be replaced because when they go up in a puff of smoke they don't all take the same path.
From your earlier posts it didn't sound as if you had much experience. My suggestion is relace all the electrolytics on the driver boards as well as the small transistors (TO92's) replace the bias transistor on the heat sink as well as the outputs and insulators. I'm making this suggestion because of the age of the amplifier and the fact that I'm sure you do not want it to nickle and dime you to death in the future. Remember to check all the diodes also that are on the driver board. Remember that ther is a missprint on the schematic if my memory is correct. When your done either employ the light bulb trick or use a variac just to be safe.
To answer your question there is no answer as to what is going to need to be replaced because when they go up in a puff of smoke they don't all take the same path.
Update. It's alive! I ended up replacing all the electrolytics (except for the big pair) with cerafines. 3 resistors. Two small transistors in the limiting circuit. The four drivers and the four finals(all On Semi). I got it all back together and brought it up with a variac. The relay clicked(never did before) and nothing smoked! I wanted to check with a cheap speaker and I didn't feel like carrying it down to hook up to my pre. I hooked my phone up and played some music. Both channels work. No bad leds. It's dead quiet when the input signal was nil. Is there a procedure to set the bias? I imagine I'm just looking for a certain voltage at some point in the circuit and use the pots to get it there?
Thanks,
Steve
Thanks,
Steve
This seems like a really good amp...
I have the possibility to acquire one of these amps. This one works, yet needs quite a bit of input gain, (more then 1.5 volts) and has bulb tester issues.
My system is a PC based source thru an M-Audio DAC on Avebury Speakers. I am currently using 40 watt chip amps, but the Aveburys could use more power on dynamic peaks. The chip amps sound more transparent then this SAE 2200 in its current condition. But I like the power and body of the SAE 2200. Is it worth restoring this amp? My gut is telling me this amp has a lot of potential.
Thoughts anyone???
Allen
I have the possibility to acquire one of these amps. This one works, yet needs quite a bit of input gain, (more then 1.5 volts) and has bulb tester issues.
My system is a PC based source thru an M-Audio DAC on Avebury Speakers. I am currently using 40 watt chip amps, but the Aveburys could use more power on dynamic peaks. The chip amps sound more transparent then this SAE 2200 in its current condition. But I like the power and body of the SAE 2200. Is it worth restoring this amp? My gut is telling me this amp has a lot of potential.
Thoughts anyone???
Allen
Attachments
Thanks for your reply djk
I have done more research on this amp and from the responses I am gathering from the other thread I am involved in here at diyaudio, I am getting the impression that if I was to put in the time, money and effort to restore a vintage amp like this, I am better off going with a Kenwood M2/M2a or Yamaha B1/B2. The SAE needs a high gain pre-amp by design (the SAE pre-amps of this generation had peak outputs of 9 volts!). I read that the SAE is not as reliable as its comtempories, but how does that apply to the sound?
As far as 4 ohm loads go, the Avebury Speakers I am using are a full-range backloaded double mouth horn system using the Alpair 12 driver rated at 8 ohms. I prefer if an amp can handle lower loads to handle future builds.
So with these cavets in place, is the SAE 2200 worth overhualing, or would I be better off restoring a Kenwood or Yamaha? I am being lead to believe the latter is the way to go...
The SAE amp I have is a freind's. He loaned it to me to give it a quick look over so that he could sell it... (Maybe to me)
Allen
I have done more research on this amp and from the responses I am gathering from the other thread I am involved in here at diyaudio, I am getting the impression that if I was to put in the time, money and effort to restore a vintage amp like this, I am better off going with a Kenwood M2/M2a or Yamaha B1/B2. The SAE needs a high gain pre-amp by design (the SAE pre-amps of this generation had peak outputs of 9 volts!). I read that the SAE is not as reliable as its comtempories, but how does that apply to the sound?
As far as 4 ohm loads go, the Avebury Speakers I am using are a full-range backloaded double mouth horn system using the Alpair 12 driver rated at 8 ohms. I prefer if an amp can handle lower loads to handle future builds.
So with these cavets in place, is the SAE 2200 worth overhualing, or would I be better off restoring a Kenwood or Yamaha? I am being lead to believe the latter is the way to go...
The SAE amp I have is a freind's. He loaned it to me to give it a quick look over so that he could sell it... (Maybe to me)
Allen
The B2 outputs are basically not available. If you blow one, the amp is scrap.
The outputs for the M2 are not common, and very expensive when you find them. The last one I fixed I was barely able to recover the repair cost after it was abandoned by the owner and I had to sell it.
They aren't much newer than the SAE.
I would rather have the SAE.
The gain of the SAE is 26dB, that's standard. It will be 3dB into clipping when driven by a CD with peaks at digital 0, so all you need is a passive volume control to get full output, no preamp is required.
If you replace the stock outputs (usually the 2SD424/2SB554) with MJ21193/94 it would handle a 4Ω load.
The outputs for the M2 are not common, and very expensive when you find them. The last one I fixed I was barely able to recover the repair cost after it was abandoned by the owner and I had to sell it.
They aren't much newer than the SAE.
I would rather have the SAE.
The gain of the SAE is 26dB, that's standard. It will be 3dB into clipping when driven by a CD with peaks at digital 0, so all you need is a passive volume control to get full output, no preamp is required.
If you replace the stock outputs (usually the 2SD424/2SB554) with MJ21193/94 it would handle a 4Ω load.
Okay, I gave that a shot. I hooked up a Pioneer CLD-3070 laser disk player thru my lightspeed attentuator into the SAE, and got full output. At full output, it sounded like the SAE was struggling, esp with bass. I then hooked up a dummy load and ran 100, 1000, and 10,000 Hz tones thru the SAE at full power (100 watts). I only measured 23.13 volts (66 watts) and that kept gradually decreasing... So needless to say, I have not really heard this amp at it's full potential. I like the resolution and spaciousness of my chip amps, but I like the body and "meat" of this amp. So if I where to undergo the process of overhualing this amp, will I attain the best of both worlds?
I am really considering this, as I am not interested in hard to get parts.
How does the SAE sound compared to the Kenwoods and Yamahas? If they are similiar, then I will commit to this amp.
Thanks djk,
Allen
It sounds like it may need all the electrolytics replaced.
A friend of mine likes his, it replaced his B2 that broke.
The meters are way sexy on the B2, but the parts just aren't available.
He uses a Conrad Johnson preamp, a table with a Shure V15 type 5 on it, and Spectrum 208B loudspeakers. His system is very listenable.
A friend of mine likes his, it replaced his B2 that broke.
The meters are way sexy on the B2, but the parts just aren't available.
He uses a Conrad Johnson preamp, a table with a Shure V15 type 5 on it, and Spectrum 208B loudspeakers. His system is very listenable.
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