A joint venture with TGM laboratories (Bigun) have born in the last Corporation's meeting when the agreement was voted.
Bigun will develop the tube front end...so TGM front end...the output will be Dx amplifier.
Depending how long it takes to receive electronic tubes from Russia, we will decide the release date.
TGM laboratories may use mains supply rectified and filtered, having current limit to reduce danger....heater will be made with voltage regulator...heater will operate with DC...output will be Dx style (EF) and may have Zuper A circuits on it.
50/100 watts of power...distortion will be high compared to transistors..because input is tube...but sonics will be from tubes (mainly)
The agreement was celebrated...the joint venture is for this amplifier only...so, an association that has a target.
I cannot talk too much....it is a secret for a while...will be diy, offered for free, in this same forum and also in the tube forum....because both worlds will be now combined.
regards,
Carlos
Bigun will develop the tube front end...so TGM front end...the output will be Dx amplifier.
Depending how long it takes to receive electronic tubes from Russia, we will decide the release date.
TGM laboratories may use mains supply rectified and filtered, having current limit to reduce danger....heater will be made with voltage regulator...heater will operate with DC...output will be Dx style (EF) and may have Zuper A circuits on it.
50/100 watts of power...distortion will be high compared to transistors..because input is tube...but sonics will be from tubes (mainly)
The agreement was celebrated...the joint venture is for this amplifier only...so, an association that has a target.
I cannot talk too much....it is a secret for a while...will be diy, offered for free, in this same forum and also in the tube forum....because both worlds will be now combined.
regards,
Carlos
Russian tubes.
THD is usually higher in tubes...also harmonic distribution use to be different.
Well...tubes are TGM problem.... usually they sound great and measure bad.
Tube model will be informed in the release date, to avoid controversies....for a while, all i can say is that will be double triode....so, one tube to each channel.
Carlos
THD is usually higher in tubes...also harmonic distribution use to be different.
Well...tubes are TGM problem.... usually they sound great and measure bad.
Tube model will be informed in the release date, to avoid controversies....for a while, all i can say is that will be double triode....so, one tube to each channel.
Carlos
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Well, look what I got myself into ... I offered a couple of tubes to the Destroyer and the next thing I know, I'm on a new project 😱
Why hybrid ? - well I figure this hobby had it's origins with tubes so I should at least get up close with a couple of them at some point. Trouble is, they work at low current and high voltage and mostly at low power. So for real POWER Carlos is going to add some DX magic at the output stage 😉
There are a lot of good tubes to choose from but it just so happens that I wanted to play with some tubes that didn't need to be operated at very high voltages for a friend of mine who wanted to show his kids what a tube was.
So I placed a small order for some 6N23pi tubes (equivalent to the E88CC / 6DJ8 ).
Why hybrid ? - well I figure this hobby had it's origins with tubes so I should at least get up close with a couple of them at some point. Trouble is, they work at low current and high voltage and mostly at low power. So for real POWER Carlos is going to add some DX magic at the output stage 😉
There are a lot of good tubes to choose from but it just so happens that I wanted to play with some tubes that didn't need to be operated at very high voltages for a friend of mine who wanted to show his kids what a tube was.
So I placed a small order for some 6N23pi tubes (equivalent to the E88CC / 6DJ8 ).
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Well, I am now understanding that a DX Corp. amplifier is expected to meet some stiff requirements:
low measured distortion, no triple outputs but only double EF (tubes like to drive light loads which favours triple outputs), good PSRR of course, good stability and gain matching between channels, high damping factor for bass response and no pesky dc-offset issues.
All this favours use of global negative feedback and dc-coupling throughout. In short, the familiar DX topology. It doesn't appear suited to a hybrid.
Carlos suggested why put tubes into DX topology, use for LTP and VAS. Well this ain't easy since tubes come in only one flavour, n-type.
I thought I would post an idea of how to do this.
I use tubes for LTP and VAS. connect the output of the LTP to the VAS using a technique invented by a man called Taylor, it's known for use in the Taylor Follower. It requires a pnp device.
I'll attach what I came up with. First the schematic, then the Spice file (change .txt to .asc before running it).
low measured distortion, no triple outputs but only double EF (tubes like to drive light loads which favours triple outputs), good PSRR of course, good stability and gain matching between channels, high damping factor for bass response and no pesky dc-offset issues.
All this favours use of global negative feedback and dc-coupling throughout. In short, the familiar DX topology. It doesn't appear suited to a hybrid.
Carlos suggested why put tubes into DX topology, use for LTP and VAS. Well this ain't easy since tubes come in only one flavour, n-type.
I thought I would post an idea of how to do this.
I use tubes for LTP and VAS. connect the output of the LTP to the VAS using a technique invented by a man called Taylor, it's known for use in the Taylor Follower. It requires a pnp device.
I'll attach what I came up with. First the schematic, then the Spice file (change .txt to .asc before running it).
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The results of the simulation are:
Harmonic Frequency Fourier Normalized Phase Normalized
Number [Hz] Component Component [degree] Phase [deg]
1 1.000e+03 2.208e+01 1.000e+00 0.46° 0.00°
2 2.000e+03 1.270e-02 5.751e-04 94.96° 94.50°
3 3.000e+03 2.463e-03 1.116e-04 4.08° 3.62°
4 4.000e+03 1.631e-05 7.387e-07 -60.54° -61.00°
5 5.000e+03 3.130e-04 1.418e-05 -175.29° -175.75°
6 6.000e+03 4.121e-05 1.867e-06 -91.13° -91.59°
7 7.000e+03 8.385e-05 3.798e-06 7.04° 6.58°
8 8.000e+03 1.157e-05 5.241e-07 110.95° 110.49°
9 9.000e+03 2.356e-05 1.067e-06 -172.30° -172.76°
Total Harmonic Distortion: 0.058599%
f= 1kHz
O/P = +/- 22V peak = 30W into 8 Ohm
Personally, I like the FFT profile.
Output stage idle current is around 60mA.
Most of you don't play with tubes - just think of them as JFETs for the most part...
Harmonic Frequency Fourier Normalized Phase Normalized
Number [Hz] Component Component [degree] Phase [deg]
1 1.000e+03 2.208e+01 1.000e+00 0.46° 0.00°
2 2.000e+03 1.270e-02 5.751e-04 94.96° 94.50°
3 3.000e+03 2.463e-03 1.116e-04 4.08° 3.62°
4 4.000e+03 1.631e-05 7.387e-07 -60.54° -61.00°
5 5.000e+03 3.130e-04 1.418e-05 -175.29° -175.75°
6 6.000e+03 4.121e-05 1.867e-06 -91.13° -91.59°
7 7.000e+03 8.385e-05 3.798e-06 7.04° 6.58°
8 8.000e+03 1.157e-05 5.241e-07 110.95° 110.49°
9 9.000e+03 2.356e-05 1.067e-06 -172.30° -172.76°
Total Harmonic Distortion: 0.058599%
f= 1kHz
O/P = +/- 22V peak = 30W into 8 Ohm
Personally, I like the FFT profile.
Output stage idle current is around 60mA.
Most of you don't play with tubes - just think of them as JFETs for the most part...
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Congratulations Bigun...you did the whole job
Thank you, now i have only to simulate and to build.
Exactly the way i wanted....perfect!
I am gladly we agreed that this previous one distorted too much.
regards,
Carlos
Thank you, now i have only to simulate and to build.
Exactly the way i wanted....perfect!
I am gladly we agreed that this previous one distorted too much.
regards,
Carlos
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Carlos, Gareth,
Creative circuit, particularly the SS VAS drive!
By using a SS VAS to drive the tube VAS, then fixing the closed loop gain with feedback, you create considerable loop gain. How many db, I imagine it would be a lot dominated by the Taylor connected PNP, but it will reduce THD. This will correct the output stage non-linearities but the profile you get will still be dominated at the high order by odd harmonics because of the output stage.
I guess the acid test is a good listen, but I believe that taking at least one of the tubes out of the feedback loop so it's open loop sonics dominate. You could do this by dropping the LTP input stage, making it a singleton, then preceding it with an open loop plate loaded triode.
I hope this is useful, I don't mean to criticise....
Hugh
Creative circuit, particularly the SS VAS drive!
By using a SS VAS to drive the tube VAS, then fixing the closed loop gain with feedback, you create considerable loop gain. How many db, I imagine it would be a lot dominated by the Taylor connected PNP, but it will reduce THD. This will correct the output stage non-linearities but the profile you get will still be dominated at the high order by odd harmonics because of the output stage.
I guess the acid test is a good listen, but I believe that taking at least one of the tubes out of the feedback loop so it's open loop sonics dominate. You could do this by dropping the LTP input stage, making it a singleton, then preceding it with an open loop plate loaded triode.
I hope this is useful, I don't mean to criticise....
Hugh
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Thank you Hugh......but i could not understand
Can you please post a sketch showing the topology you mean ...not needed values...just the topologie....of course i will study your suggestion, it will be simulated and may be built....all i need is to understand.
Gareth may understand as his mother language is English....you see meaning of load and loading for me....i do not know you understand this words in the same way.
Image shows what i understand as colector load and colector loading. (plate load or plate loading)
Acid test?... what is this?
regards,
Carlos
Can you please post a sketch showing the topology you mean ...not needed values...just the topologie....of course i will study your suggestion, it will be simulated and may be built....all i need is to understand.
Gareth may understand as his mother language is English....you see meaning of load and loading for me....i do not know you understand this words in the same way.
Image shows what i understand as colector load and colector loading. (plate load or plate loading)
Acid test?... what is this?
regards,
Carlos
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Boys...uncle Charlie is a hell busy running other designs
Zuper A is a hell hard and i am working on it..also running several group buys and several different foruns...also Orkut, Youtube activities and preparing together Joel three amplifier layout for future release.
Dx Hybrid was not to be shown....because it is an idea to be developed by TGM and Dx in a joint venture but to be published July, 17th 2012... because i will be free to run this in the future...not now.
We made mistake publishing schematic, and this should be a secret..my mistake... this is not a forum cooperative group design..it is a personal design made by joint venture and should not leak until the date decided in the first post.
So, i am making arrangements with TGM (bigun) to run this project in secret..between us.... till the release date...or if he have time to run alone, then he will open a new thread, will call it TGM Hybrid and will go ahead.
Then i will present another one, in this thread.... in July, 17th 2012.
I cannot run this now.... and i do not think it is fine my name on it when i will be almost out from this task....so, it is more fair to Bigun to use his own name as he will run the project himself.
I can do it...but not now.... published schematics alike we did will have as result, some people interested and they may ask us the development and to have layout... test prototype, boards and so on... and maybe group buy..and i cannot do that now..i am too much busy.
So...long life to Dx Hybrid to be released in July, 17th, 2012.... and circuit will be a secret till that date...so... cannot be this one already shown because this one is not a secret anymore ... ahahahahah!🙂
Or, long life to TGM Hybrid to be release the date Bigun wants... this way we gonna have TWO Hybrid in the place of a single one.... and two is better than one.
regards,
Carlos
Zuper A is a hell hard and i am working on it..also running several group buys and several different foruns...also Orkut, Youtube activities and preparing together Joel three amplifier layout for future release.
Dx Hybrid was not to be shown....because it is an idea to be developed by TGM and Dx in a joint venture but to be published July, 17th 2012... because i will be free to run this in the future...not now.
We made mistake publishing schematic, and this should be a secret..my mistake... this is not a forum cooperative group design..it is a personal design made by joint venture and should not leak until the date decided in the first post.
So, i am making arrangements with TGM (bigun) to run this project in secret..between us.... till the release date...or if he have time to run alone, then he will open a new thread, will call it TGM Hybrid and will go ahead.
Then i will present another one, in this thread.... in July, 17th 2012.
I cannot run this now.... and i do not think it is fine my name on it when i will be almost out from this task....so, it is more fair to Bigun to use his own name as he will run the project himself.
I can do it...but not now.... published schematics alike we did will have as result, some people interested and they may ask us the development and to have layout... test prototype, boards and so on... and maybe group buy..and i cannot do that now..i am too much busy.
So...long life to Dx Hybrid to be released in July, 17th, 2012.... and circuit will be a secret till that date...so... cannot be this one already shown because this one is not a secret anymore ... ahahahahah!🙂
Or, long life to TGM Hybrid to be release the date Bigun wants... this way we gonna have TWO Hybrid in the place of a single one.... and two is better than one.
regards,
Carlos
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This first schematic is not THE schematic ... it is a teaser, a demonstration of how one could make a standard LIN topology into a hybrid by simply swapping transistors for tubes. It's an intellectual challenge only - one I couldn't resist 🙂
I don't think people are looking for this kind of solution, it most likely would sound like a bad transistor amplifier and not like a hybrid, not like a good transistor or a good tube amplifier.
No, the DX Hybrid will require something different 😉
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It is very good that you are around dear Bigun...you made this schematic yourself
I feel sorry that i am demanding about the output EF style...i do not like the tripple darlington, and also other circuit variations..this reduces your "range" of creativity.
Dx Corporation is having the benefit of your presence and cooperation... but i will understand if you decide different...because you have only the input to study.... i want to keep my old tested ideas..the tradition...the Dx Amplifier EF style that is the same Aksa 55 output...with minimum differences and variations.
Now we gonna test and develop this circuit you made Bigun.... please, if possible, do not publish our development....let's work between us for a while.
We are having Hugh...and this is positive.... is actually excelent.. but other ideas, different from the ones Hugh is offering, can come and will produce a mess if we decide to try all possibilities...we must follow our own ideas and to have a target and direction, a method..others have different ideas and they should make themselves.
You see that Hugh does not submit his designs to public appreciation..he do himself..and this is what made him so good..the was following one direction, his own philosophy and ideas about..he capture ideas but he do not collect suggestions for his amplifiers... reason why his amplifier are Aksa and not Daksa, Trakas or Saksa.
regards,
Carlos
I feel sorry that i am demanding about the output EF style...i do not like the tripple darlington, and also other circuit variations..this reduces your "range" of creativity.
Dx Corporation is having the benefit of your presence and cooperation... but i will understand if you decide different...because you have only the input to study.... i want to keep my old tested ideas..the tradition...the Dx Amplifier EF style that is the same Aksa 55 output...with minimum differences and variations.
Now we gonna test and develop this circuit you made Bigun.... please, if possible, do not publish our development....let's work between us for a while.
We are having Hugh...and this is positive.... is actually excelent.. but other ideas, different from the ones Hugh is offering, can come and will produce a mess if we decide to try all possibilities...we must follow our own ideas and to have a target and direction, a method..others have different ideas and they should make themselves.
You see that Hugh does not submit his designs to public appreciation..he do himself..and this is what made him so good..the was following one direction, his own philosophy and ideas about..he capture ideas but he do not collect suggestions for his amplifiers... reason why his amplifier are Aksa and not Daksa, Trakas or Saksa.
regards,
Carlos
Not to be too unkind,
I think Carlos is TOO SOON to publish this.
It is not the first time. Carlos can not keep his fingers long enough
from the "NEW TOPIC" button.
Better to have some good solid material and schematic BEFORE start topic.
Anyway, it is no big harm done. Really.
But readers/builders will be confused and nervous.
Right now we do not know much for certain.
Regards
Lineup - who will wait for one direction for this hybrid.
I think Carlos is TOO SOON to publish this.
It is not the first time. Carlos can not keep his fingers long enough
from the "NEW TOPIC" button.
Better to have some good solid material and schematic BEFORE start topic.
Anyway, it is no big harm done. Really.
But readers/builders will be confused and nervous.
Right now we do not know much for certain.
Regards
Lineup - who will wait for one direction for this hybrid.
Sorry folks...my mistake..this was only to be announced that we will make
a Hybrid, and informing the joint venture is on the run...the design is to be release next year.
I do think i was not clear that would released next year...my error....as i am, together Bigun, starting to do something about...we are busy with other amplifiers... several running same time...but will be released one after the other in a sequence.
This is just for Dx Corporation friends to know we are working... no schematic will be published anymore as this is our internal work.... confidential, private and secret on the run work...something to protect the identity, not o be polluted by other different ideas or approached... i forgot to arrange that secrecy with Bigun...now we have made some agreements about.
Some nervous feeling, alike excitement, or curiosity..well... this is one of the good things we are doing.... shacking the "status quo".
The idea is to be happy as you gonna have new things next year... Zuper A and Hybrid... and maybe more than one Hybrid, as Bigun has his own ideas about...we can make three..one from the joint venture, other exclusive Dx and other exclusive TGM.
We are working for our pleasure and working for your pleasure too...new toys for our life...this means for your life too.
You can do even better Lineup...what about to produce yours too.... some Hybrid using tubes... i do think you did with Fets.... these are not that hybrid as fets are transistors too....maybe something more hardcore.
But my notice reserves to the Dx Corporation to be the first one that started a DIY, for free, Hybrid (tube plus transistors amplifiers.... next ones will be copying the idea)... a pre launch was made.
regards,
Carlos
a Hybrid, and informing the joint venture is on the run...the design is to be release next year.
I do think i was not clear that would released next year...my error....as i am, together Bigun, starting to do something about...we are busy with other amplifiers... several running same time...but will be released one after the other in a sequence.
This is just for Dx Corporation friends to know we are working... no schematic will be published anymore as this is our internal work.... confidential, private and secret on the run work...something to protect the identity, not o be polluted by other different ideas or approached... i forgot to arrange that secrecy with Bigun...now we have made some agreements about.
Some nervous feeling, alike excitement, or curiosity..well... this is one of the good things we are doing.... shacking the "status quo".
The idea is to be happy as you gonna have new things next year... Zuper A and Hybrid... and maybe more than one Hybrid, as Bigun has his own ideas about...we can make three..one from the joint venture, other exclusive Dx and other exclusive TGM.
We are working for our pleasure and working for your pleasure too...new toys for our life...this means for your life too.
You can do even better Lineup...what about to produce yours too.... some Hybrid using tubes... i do think you did with Fets.... these are not that hybrid as fets are transistors too....maybe something more hardcore.
But my notice reserves to the Dx Corporation to be the first one that started a DIY, for free, Hybrid (tube plus transistors amplifiers.... next ones will be copying the idea)... a pre launch was made.
regards,
Carlos
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I personally think the lineup started thread Jfet to lateral was one of the best SS threads for a long time....All completely out in the open, many ideas and a few to keep the project on track....The thread was both educational and transparent....an example to be followed...
This working behind closed doors with teasers.. gives an impression of warming the forum audience up for something commercial...hidden advertising so to speak...and is not my cup of tea....but then again just my humble opinion....
The idea of a tube/bipolar hybrid is however very exiting....and I do hope it stays in the open..
I made hybrid once with a triode followed by capacitor coupled lateral mosfets, and while it sounded extremely good from the mid-band and up..it also lacked some energy and punch in the lower stretches..
do Hope this future design could better that....🙂
This working behind closed doors with teasers.. gives an impression of warming the forum audience up for something commercial...hidden advertising so to speak...and is not my cup of tea....but then again just my humble opinion....
The idea of a tube/bipolar hybrid is however very exiting....and I do hope it stays in the open..
I made hybrid once with a triode followed by capacitor coupled lateral mosfets, and while it sounded extremely good from the mid-band and up..it also lacked some energy and punch in the lower stretches..
do Hope this future design could better that....🙂
Yes... line up is very good..and he use the same simulator i am using
So, he has a good reference to help him...and he loves simulators.
I want to see his Hybrid and tube to beat my one....hehehehe..i will eat my one and will make a movie proving i have eated if he succeed to beat mine one.
Mine will be assembled and tuned..and his will not be assembled..so...mine will be better.... 300% guaranteed....the only chance he has to match or beat uncle charlie, is if he starts to assemble and tune listening.... no other way.
As he never do this way..... heheheh..already lost..in advance... we will give him a honored second place.
Simulator only simulates and give us numbers...do not play music..we cannot evaluate sonics and tuning will not appear in sonics...so..will be only a number conversation with another number.... Dx Corporation build... and listen... and adjust...method is better... result use to be better.
Sometimes misadjustment sounds even better... the one works with simulator only... will never accept something a little bit out of "best theoretical operational point"...so...will not reach the optimized sittuation that sometimes is different than best theoretical operational point.
As you already know he is good, dear Miib, assemble his tube hybrid.
regards,
Carlos
So, he has a good reference to help him...and he loves simulators.
I want to see his Hybrid and tube to beat my one....hehehehe..i will eat my one and will make a movie proving i have eated if he succeed to beat mine one.
Mine will be assembled and tuned..and his will not be assembled..so...mine will be better.... 300% guaranteed....the only chance he has to match or beat uncle charlie, is if he starts to assemble and tune listening.... no other way.
As he never do this way..... heheheh..already lost..in advance... we will give him a honored second place.
Simulator only simulates and give us numbers...do not play music..we cannot evaluate sonics and tuning will not appear in sonics...so..will be only a number conversation with another number.... Dx Corporation build... and listen... and adjust...method is better... result use to be better.
Sometimes misadjustment sounds even better... the one works with simulator only... will never accept something a little bit out of "best theoretical operational point"...so...will not reach the optimized sittuation that sometimes is different than best theoretical operational point.
As you already know he is good, dear Miib, assemble his tube hybrid.
regards,
Carlos
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I will eat the tubes and will shot the amplifier
If anyone that works with simulator only succeed to beat mine.
My legs are shacking so scared i am about guys that uses mainly, simulators...i will eat mine!
regards,
Carlos
If anyone that works with simulator only succeed to beat mine.
My legs are shacking so scared i am about guys that uses mainly, simulators...i will eat mine!
regards,
Carlos
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Ohh.. it was not the result of the http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/solid-state/186650-jfet-input-mosfet-vas-lateral-output-perfect.html thread I like as much as the process in which the result is created.. with a good mix of participants...some building other giving hints and suggestions...with Swordfish Mikelm and also Hugh being the main contribution to build on lineups starting point....The thread had a very good tone and i do also believe a nice end result.. With Hugh Aksa providing a spin off layout group buy(PCB) ..
This thread has the potential to gather folks from both SS and tube readers...and if managed well it could potentially be a true winner...in terms of results and recognition....Hope Hugh will contribute as well as wavebourn and others with good tube experiences...
This thread has the potential to gather folks from both SS and tube readers...and if managed well it could potentially be a true winner...in terms of results and recognition....Hope Hugh will contribute as well as wavebourn and others with good tube experiences...
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