R14 = 8.25V excellent (to spec)
DC offset = can be adjusted with trimmer afterwards.
270R R30 = output stage will start conducting at about 250R , 175-180R
will produce optimum output stage bias.
Also, biasing R14(CCS adj.) to 9V or a lower Value for R27 (56/68R) will bring that
"optimum" range of R30 to the 220-270 ohm range. This is the reason for
a 500R trimmer for R30 - to allow for these choices.
OS
I need some advice. I do not have some of the recommended transistors for HB but I have plenty of other types.
Which would be best for:
1. cascode (Q3-4) - 2n5551 (hfe about 140) or 2sc2240bl (hfe >400)?
2. Q7 - 2n5551 or 2sa970bl or bc550c or ksc1815?
3. for Q10, 11, 12 - 2sa1209s/c2911s or 2sa1249s/c3117s or ksa1220Ay/c2690Ay or ksa1142y/c2682y?
For Q5-6 I'm using bc560c, Q8 is KSC1815, Q9 is 2sa970bl (hfe>500) and for Q13 I'll use 2sc3117s/t. All the other transistors are as recommended.
Thanks,
PS Spice models for 2sa1209/c2911:
------------------------------------------------
* Spice netlister for gnetlist
* Device models
.MODEL 2SC2911 NPN(IS=1.91E-13 ISE=4.9E-11 NF=1.073 NE=2.8 BF=274
+IKF=0.0836 VAF=320 CJC=6.4E-12 TF=8.84E-10 MJC=0.31 VJC=0.98
+CJE=6.4E-12 MJE=0.3 VJE=0.4 LEVEL=1)
.MODEL 2SA1209 PNP(IS=1.6E-13 ISE=5.2E-11 NF=1.073 NE=2.57 BF=257
+IKF=0.081 VAF=125 CJC=8.7E-12 TF=9.95E-10 MJC=0.313 VJC=0.975
+CJE=8.7E-12 MJE=0.3 VJE=0.4 LEVEL=1)
Which would be best for:
1. cascode (Q3-4) - 2n5551 (hfe about 140) or 2sc2240bl (hfe >400)?
2. Q7 - 2n5551 or 2sa970bl or bc550c or ksc1815?
3. for Q10, 11, 12 - 2sa1209s/c2911s or 2sa1249s/c3117s or ksa1220Ay/c2690Ay or ksa1142y/c2682y?
For Q5-6 I'm using bc560c, Q8 is KSC1815, Q9 is 2sa970bl (hfe>500) and for Q13 I'll use 2sc3117s/t. All the other transistors are as recommended.
Thanks,
PS Spice models for 2sa1209/c2911:
------------------------------------------------
* Spice netlister for gnetlist
* Device models
.MODEL 2SC2911 NPN(IS=1.91E-13 ISE=4.9E-11 NF=1.073 NE=2.8 BF=274
+IKF=0.0836 VAF=320 CJC=6.4E-12 TF=8.84E-10 MJC=0.31 VJC=0.98
+CJE=6.4E-12 MJE=0.3 VJE=0.4 LEVEL=1)
.MODEL 2SA1209 PNP(IS=1.6E-13 ISE=5.2E-11 NF=1.073 NE=2.57 BF=257
+IKF=0.081 VAF=125 CJC=8.7E-12 TF=9.95E-10 MJC=0.313 VJC=0.975
+CJE=8.7E-12 MJE=0.3 VJE=0.4 LEVEL=1)
I did some testing with your models. Q1/2 and 5/6 were the "touchy"
ones. Try to aim for < 500Hfe for both.
Cascode just needs to be a high Vce device, no gain here.
For the VAS and CCS's nothing critical. 2911/1209 pair
worked good for the VAS. Don't use too high of a rail voltage with
this pair (60-65V max).
Using a high gain Q5/6 was where I could get instability.
OS
ones. Try to aim for < 500Hfe for both.
Cascode just needs to be a high Vce device, no gain here.
For the VAS and CCS's nothing critical. 2911/1209 pair
worked good for the VAS. Don't use too high of a rail voltage with
this pair (60-65V max).
Using a high gain Q5/6 was where I could get instability.
OS
Thanks ostripper,
for Q1-2 I'm using ss9014d with hfe of 560 perfectly matched but I increased R15-16 to 121ohm and R17 is 2k. Will that do?
I'll replace Q5-6 with low Hfe transistors, bc327 or ksa1015y (max hfe about 240).
For cascode I'll use 2n5551 as it's common base so Hfe as you said does not matter.
I'll be using 2x45V or 2x40V toroids so I should not get more than +/-65V no load.
I also have 2sa1406/c3600 which have better SOA than 2sa1209/c2911.
cheers,
for Q1-2 I'm using ss9014d with hfe of 560 perfectly matched but I increased R15-16 to 121ohm and R17 is 2k. Will that do?
I'll replace Q5-6 with low Hfe transistors, bc327 or ksa1015y (max hfe about 240).
For cascode I'll use 2n5551 as it's common base so Hfe as you said does not matter.
I'll be using 2x45V or 2x40V toroids so I should not get more than +/-65V no load.
I also have 2sa1406/c3600 which have better SOA than 2sa1209/c2911.
cheers,
The early badgers were designed with a PILE of F grade KSA992/KSC1845 ...
(300-600Hfe) Anything in this range should work well.
Only one person used 1200-1400Hfe devices , got a little "squirrelly".
Thanks for tipping me on ..http://www.sm0vpo.com/_pdf/2SA/2SA1406.pdf
I am looking for a 3503/1831 replacement (soon to be discontinued). they
even look better than the KSA/C's. SOA does not matter much for the VAS,
6-10mA is not much - using a larger heatsink is helpful - 40 X 80mm of
plain ol' aluminum roof flashing is what I used.
OS
(300-600Hfe) Anything in this range should work well.
Only one person used 1200-1400Hfe devices , got a little "squirrelly".
Thanks for tipping me on ..http://www.sm0vpo.com/_pdf/2SA/2SA1406.pdf
I am looking for a 3503/1831 replacement (soon to be discontinued). they
even look better than the KSA/C's. SOA does not matter much for the VAS,
6-10mA is not much - using a larger heatsink is helpful - 40 X 80mm of
plain ol' aluminum roof flashing is what I used.
OS
OS, will you consider TO-220's instead of to-126's?
some choices here...http://users.tpg.com.au/gerskine/greg/VAS Transistors.htm
some choices here...http://users.tpg.com.au/gerskine/greg/VAS Transistors.htm
There are also 2sa1541/c3956 with Ic=200mA (pulse 300mA) but I do not know if these are still in production. I bought mine years ago for Stochino amp.
BD Enterprises sell these transistors but these are not cheap. 2sc3600 costs now $3.80 and $2.90 for 200 plus. 2sa1541 is even more expensive: $3.99, 2sc3956 is cheaper @1.20 and $0.70 for 200 plus.
cheers,
BD Enterprises sell these transistors but these are not cheap. 2sc3600 costs now $3.80 and $2.90 for 200 plus. 2sa1541 is even more expensive: $3.99, 2sc3956 is cheaper @1.20 and $0.70 for 200 plus.
cheers,
Can I use Honey Badgers for surround sound?
After reading 115 pages of this thread, I've decided that I'm very interested in putting 8 channels of Honey Badger into a single 5 U enclosure (i.e. the one in the DIYA store with heat sinks for sides). I'm thinking about mounting 4 channels on each side. I'd keep some decoupling caps in the center of the enclosure along with some output relays. But, I'd put a big Toroid >= 1500VA and power smoothing caps in a separate enclosure along with a microcontroller (or tiny computer) to handle startup/shutdown/over-temp. I'd probably put some one-wire thermometers various places in there too. Of course this would result in me running the ~60VDC rails over some thick cabling between the two chassis.
My use would be mostly for home entertainment (movies and some music), so most of the time I wouldn't be driving it that hard.
Would I be able to fit at least 7 channels in a 5-U enclosure? Are there better enclosure options? Is this a bad idea for other reasons?
I read Self's discussion on separating out the power supply, and he seems to think the concept is sound.
After reading 115 pages of this thread, I've decided that I'm very interested in putting 8 channels of Honey Badger into a single 5 U enclosure (i.e. the one in the DIYA store with heat sinks for sides). I'm thinking about mounting 4 channels on each side. I'd keep some decoupling caps in the center of the enclosure along with some output relays. But, I'd put a big Toroid >= 1500VA and power smoothing caps in a separate enclosure along with a microcontroller (or tiny computer) to handle startup/shutdown/over-temp. I'd probably put some one-wire thermometers various places in there too. Of course this would result in me running the ~60VDC rails over some thick cabling between the two chassis.
My use would be mostly for home entertainment (movies and some music), so most of the time I wouldn't be driving it that hard.
Would I be able to fit at least 7 channels in a 5-U enclosure? Are there better enclosure options? Is this a bad idea for other reasons?
I read Self's discussion on separating out the power supply, and he seems to think the concept is sound.
One of my old friends ....
Made a 6 channels HT amp with a VERY similar design.
Here is his thread ( a master DIY'er!!)
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/solid-state/185397-building-6-channel-amplifier.html
OS
Made a 6 channels HT amp with a VERY similar design.
Here is his thread ( a master DIY'er!!)
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/solid-state/185397-building-6-channel-amplifier.html
OS
I plan to build this amp for my first discrete build and I have been looking at options, mainly for the power supply so far. I don't want to go beyond my ability, but I think I am capable of doing this. I do have some training in electronics, but that was many years ago and much is forgotten.
Dual mono means adding probably somewhere in the neighborhood of $200 to the build cost. From what I read, some people find this to be a waste of money. Dual mono doesn't add a lot of complexity though so it shouldn't affect my ability to get the amp built without extra complication. There is also the option of a virtual dual mono with a supply board for each channel but only 1 traffo. Is this a good investment? Full dual mono? or virtual? or neither?
Then I read about ostripper's power supply options. ie: CRC supply and a separate supply for the front end: http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/solid-state/192431-diyab-amp-honey-badger-112.html#post3702745 . Both of these (Especially the CRC) seem not too difficult to implement although I'm not too sure on the grounding arrangement for the separate supplies. I don't want to bite off more than I can chew but improvements seem to look good in simulation. I would expect more performance improvement overall than a dual mono config. How do you guys feel about these options? Have some people built the separate front end power supply? Am I asking for trouble?
Also for the soft start: Will the DIYaudio soft start & DC protection board work for this amp?
I am sure I will have more questions as I delve into this but that I what I have come up with so far.
Dual mono means adding probably somewhere in the neighborhood of $200 to the build cost. From what I read, some people find this to be a waste of money. Dual mono doesn't add a lot of complexity though so it shouldn't affect my ability to get the amp built without extra complication. There is also the option of a virtual dual mono with a supply board for each channel but only 1 traffo. Is this a good investment? Full dual mono? or virtual? or neither?
Then I read about ostripper's power supply options. ie: CRC supply and a separate supply for the front end: http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/solid-state/192431-diyab-amp-honey-badger-112.html#post3702745 . Both of these (Especially the CRC) seem not too difficult to implement although I'm not too sure on the grounding arrangement for the separate supplies. I don't want to bite off more than I can chew but improvements seem to look good in simulation. I would expect more performance improvement overall than a dual mono config. How do you guys feel about these options? Have some people built the separate front end power supply? Am I asking for trouble?
Also for the soft start: Will the DIYaudio soft start & DC protection board work for this amp?
I am sure I will have more questions as I delve into this but that I what I have come up with so far.
My Honey Badger channels share only the transformer and its mains connection. The "proper" way to handle grounding in this situation is with a star of stars. The HB boards have a "0V test point" in the middle of the on board star. This is a great connection point to the main star.
I was prepared to connect that way if needed, but it turned out my 12 gauge connections between power supply and amp boards were low impedance enough to allow me to use the PSU boards' spare ground connection to the main star.
A regulated front end is something I would like to try. It won't be with my HB at first, since I am using it in my main system now.
Yes, the store's soft start and DC protect will work just fine and fit in a 4U Jack of all chassis.
I was prepared to connect that way if needed, but it turned out my 12 gauge connections between power supply and amp boards were low impedance enough to allow me to use the PSU boards' spare ground connection to the main star.
A regulated front end is something I would like to try. It won't be with my HB at first, since I am using it in my main system now.
Yes, the store's soft start and DC protect will work just fine and fit in a 4U Jack of all chassis.
My audio philospophy is: two way mixed active systems plus active subwoofer so I need many amps. Home theatre needs surround, music room stereo and second audio-TV system in the so called family has stereo. I have only one box with four amps but it's only 60W, all the other boxes have one PS and two modules but for Stochino I have transformers in a separate box. Each box is one channel so no problem with separation.
cheers,
cheers,
I suppose it is hard for anybody else to decide if it's "worth the cost" for me. I imagine channel separation is extremely high even in a single power supply setup and the cost of adding 2 transformers is probably going overboard for me. Especially if that money could be better spent elsewhere.
PSRR = power supply ripple rejection ...
In this way , the Badger has a lot in common with many of the 70's-90's
OEM Japanese amplifier's.
They use "toy" like power supplies, under- rated to give both SOA
protection and warranty considerations. Even like this , very good audio
performance could be had.
The Badger is better than this , and we DIY'ers use "anal" power supplies
(as compared to OEM's).
If you at least split the rectification/capacitance between a multi - channel
amp using the badger , it's PSRR will almost assure near monoblock
performance with a common trafo for all amps.
I would build one with 2 badgers for L/R and 3 LM3886 as rear L/R/+Center
for a 5.1 system . The .1 would be a filtered sub out running a single Badger
as the SUB amp with a aggressive output stage at a lower rail voltage (4R).
Just an Idea !!
OS
In this way , the Badger has a lot in common with many of the 70's-90's
OEM Japanese amplifier's.
They use "toy" like power supplies, under- rated to give both SOA
protection and warranty considerations. Even like this , very good audio
performance could be had.
The Badger is better than this , and we DIY'ers use "anal" power supplies
(as compared to OEM's).
If you at least split the rectification/capacitance between a multi - channel
amp using the badger , it's PSRR will almost assure near monoblock
performance with a common trafo for all amps.
I would build one with 2 badgers for L/R and 3 LM3886 as rear L/R/+Center
for a 5.1 system . The .1 would be a filtered sub out running a single Badger
as the SUB amp with a aggressive output stage at a lower rail voltage (4R).
Just an Idea !!
OS
The main purpose of going active is not separation of channels. The main reason is avoiding problems introduced by passive crossovers and one can hear the difference between passive and active straight away. Doing this one also gets large increase in headroom and less chance for driving amps into clipping. The only reason I put two boards into one box is that I do not have big boxes. I would have to build them by myself and they would not look as good as those factory made. Consequently, somewhat enhanced channel separation is a byproduct.
There's potentially one problem with large toroids, namely they are more likely to hum than small ones so they better be bought over the counter and returned to that counter if humming. I'm now going through a process of returning a humming toroid to back to RS Components. It has to be sent back to Sydney and tested there although RS has a shop in Perth. Well, I did not buy it in Perth as it had to be shipped from the UK. Looks that I should be happy shipping it back to Sydney rather than to UK but isn't it crazy?
cheers,
There's potentially one problem with large toroids, namely they are more likely to hum than small ones so they better be bought over the counter and returned to that counter if humming. I'm now going through a process of returning a humming toroid to back to RS Components. It has to be sent back to Sydney and tested there although RS has a shop in Perth. Well, I did not buy it in Perth as it had to be shipped from the UK. Looks that I should be happy shipping it back to Sydney rather than to UK but isn't it crazy?
cheers,
Last edited:
I just have a 2.1 system. right now I have 1 of my 4 badger boards running
a Logitech Z-5500 woofer (180W). It shakes the house crossed-over at 100hz.
My other badgers are incomplete , I might build both of them ...and
the new EF3's (slewmaster).... to have 2 amps in the house.
The Badger is a good amp for ANY application where "it just needs to
work" (very reliable).
OS
a Logitech Z-5500 woofer (180W). It shakes the house crossed-over at 100hz.
My other badgers are incomplete , I might build both of them ...and
the new EF3's (slewmaster).... to have 2 amps in the house.
The Badger is a good amp for ANY application where "it just needs to
work" (very reliable).
OS
i'm thinking of doing a 5ch badger in a 5U 400mm pesante chassis with 5pc 10.000" sinks from heatsinkUSA. transformer will be 2*40V 1000VA(i have this transformer). but i can't decide on the PSU.
option1 is: a common PSU With 4*63.000uF(i have this caps).
option2 is: designated rectifier and PSU bank of 40-60.000uF pr ch. placed under the sinks and amp boards
for option2, the sinks are limited to 4" long. for option1, the sinks will be 7" long.
option1 is: a common PSU With 4*63.000uF(i have this caps).
option2 is: designated rectifier and PSU bank of 40-60.000uF pr ch. placed under the sinks and amp boards
for option2, the sinks are limited to 4" long. for option1, the sinks will be 7" long.