He was citing somebody, it was the same irony you use sometimes.
Few years ago we tested my tube amp using his equipment, in his laboratory. The amp measured very clean (-80 dB of 2'nd order error only on half of max power), but nobody would call it dry, sterile, lifeless, non-involving.
Last edited:
This 1981 paper struck me as possibly insightful, and coincidentally is first on the big list. If this was a loudspeaker thread I'd go to Geddes. Not being an AES member or having the extra $20, does anyone know the gist of it, or whether SAPublicLibrary might have access? commercial affiliation alert: JVC
Last edited:
Re
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/solid-state/189150-what-happened-digital-amp-revolution-48.html#post2592964
A bit back in time (1967) this book appeared in English Amazon.com: Music, Sound and Sensation: A Modern Exposition (9780486217642): Fritz Winckel: Books
To me, it still keeps it’s high educative value.
It keeps thinks in realistic perspective. What matters in reproduction of music, to what extend and why.
(For to gain the most out of it, some knowledge in music theory and practice is required.)
The original in German was published in 1960. Fritz Winckel is the writer.
Regards
George
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/solid-state/189150-what-happened-digital-amp-revolution-48.html#post2592964
A bit
back in time (1967) this book appeared in English Amazon.com: Music, Sound and Sensation: A Modern Exposition (9780486217642): Fritz Winckel: BooksTo me, it still keeps it’s high educative value.
It keeps thinks in realistic perspective. What matters in reproduction of music, to what extend and why.
(For to gain the most out of it, some knowledge in music theory and practice is required.)
The original in German was published in 1960. Fritz Winckel is the writer.
Regards
George
Man, it's definitely a '60s cover. That thing could trigger flashbacks.
This book is condensed, but enlightening .
The writer was an insider. Well trained, accomplished practitioner and a pioneer experimenter.
Fritz Winckel ? Wikipedia
Regards
George
He was citing somebody, it was the same irony you use sometimes.
Few years ago we tested my tube amp using his equipment, in his laboratory. The amp measured very clean (-80 dB of 2'nd order error only on half of max power), but nobody would call it dry, sterile, lifeless, non-involving.
The people who made my phono stage define the onset of clipping as the point where 'peaky distortion products (THD) reach -80dB below signal level'.
Luckily I can only hear added distortion through my speakers down to -49dB (0.35%). Guess that that is point where my speakers start to distort audibly.
What bothers me about valve amps is the 'mushy', somewhat overblown bass they produce IME. Almost invariably when I hear realistic, life-like bass from speakers they are active and driven by ss or class d amps.
I love valve amps… as long as they are at the other end of the recording chain.
I agree completely T - cause & effect need to be established otherwise we're in th eland of pseudo- science
So this is his evidence - your amp is uncoloured & it measures -80dB 2nd harmonic - is this correct?He was citing somebody, it was the same irony you use sometimes.
Few years ago we tested my tube amp using his equipment, in his laboratory. The amp measured very clean (-80 dB of 2'nd order error only on half of max power), but nobody would call it dry, sterile, lifeless, non-involving.
I'm in the same camp, tho not all valve amps I've heard are awful that way. But what works best for me is valves for the horns, class-d for the woofer. A happy marriage.
I have listened to AirTight valve amps & would not accuse them of sloppy or overblown bass. This also applies to the Baby Huey design from this forum.
I use a Naksa SS amp & would say that it is one of the best representatives of the SS amp genre.
I've got a Tripath amp that I haven't fired up in a while - must get it out, run it on batteries (I already was doing this) & compare it to the others!
I use a Naksa SS amp & would say that it is one of the best representatives of the SS amp genre.
I've got a Tripath amp that I haven't fired up in a while - must get it out, run it on batteries (I already was doing this) & compare it to the others!
I think there are few here that can actually hear any amplifier harmonic artifacts by listening to it unless you are extremely knowledgeable of the reproduction and can detect specifics out of a performance consisting of many sounds combining and interfering. The harmonic content, its amplitude and phase is what characterizes one instrument or voice from from another instrument or voice.
In my opinion the added artifacts from the amplifying chain would add nothing to the listeners experience. He/she may comment warmer, colder, etc. but not heck is that a bass guitar or trombone playing.
If you were to hear a live performance of ZZ Top and had the original recording, I will pay money to anyone who can hear and define what portion of the distortion was added by the hi-fi amp and what is original.
We attach far too much weight to things that matter less. Amplifier artifacts create a very minor variation in tonality and in my opinion the only obvious characteristic between different amps, say valves and BJTs, or FETs etc. The difference in sound characteristic of different topologies is not as wild as some would claim, in fact it is very subtle, but a designer's fingerprints are far more detectable.
In my opinion the added artifacts from the amplifying chain would add nothing to the listeners experience. He/she may comment warmer, colder, etc. but not heck is that a bass guitar or trombone playing.
If you were to hear a live performance of ZZ Top and had the original recording, I will pay money to anyone who can hear and define what portion of the distortion was added by the hi-fi amp and what is original.
We attach far too much weight to things that matter less. Amplifier artifacts create a very minor variation in tonality and in my opinion the only obvious characteristic between different amps, say valves and BJTs, or FETs etc. The difference in sound characteristic of different topologies is not as wild as some would claim, in fact it is very subtle, but a designer's fingerprints are far more detectable.
What'z that ?
Me has friend who can identify minute distortion at the edge of a loudspeaker, can even pinpoint the exact location with a marker pen.
There are folks with an eidetic memory of sound reproduction, you just never met one.
Hi,
Naksa = New Aksa, ask Hugh Dean for more info...
As for hearing all sorts of minute distortion, I agree. Many years ago I first heard the distortion stranded copper microphone cable (and other signal cables) imparts. I actually heard the absence of this distortion as "something wrong" at the time, or more precisely, I heard an absence of something I expected to hear and concluded "it sounds wrong". After I got the AP2 I was finally able to measure something, after adding further extra low noise and low distortion gain.
I remain unconvinced that the levels of HD etc. that need to be carefully coaxed into measurability with something as sensitive as an AP2 (but are real nevertheless) are audible, however I am sure as hearing something anyway. I sure wish someone would the F-Word tell me what it is, but I am not holding my breath.
Ciao T
Naksa = New Aksa, ask Hugh Dean for more info...
As for hearing all sorts of minute distortion, I agree. Many years ago I first heard the distortion stranded copper microphone cable (and other signal cables) imparts. I actually heard the absence of this distortion as "something wrong" at the time, or more precisely, I heard an absence of something I expected to hear and concluded "it sounds wrong". After I got the AP2 I was finally able to measure something, after adding further extra low noise and low distortion gain.
I remain unconvinced that the levels of HD etc. that need to be carefully coaxed into measurability with something as sensitive as an AP2 (but are real nevertheless) are audible, however I am sure as hearing something anyway. I sure wish someone would the F-Word tell me what it is, but I am not holding my breath.
Ciao T
Good point T. I'm also of the opinion that many believe the sound of digital audio is ultra-realism & they are accustomed to the sharp attack on notes tending towards harshness at times. But hey that's must be in the recording, right.
It's only when jitter (I believe this is what it is?) is reduced to a low enough level - <10pS (& data-correlated jitter eliminated) that this edginess & harshness is seen for what it is - distortion caused by jitter. It is evident in the sound.
It's only when jitter (I believe this is what it is?) is reduced to a low enough level - <10pS (& data-correlated jitter eliminated) that this edginess & harshness is seen for what it is - distortion caused by jitter. It is evident in the sound.
I didn't mention what i can and can not detect myself, no one will ever catch me at it on a web forum, bragging contests aren't my thing.
Above average hearing is a curse, not a bless, imo.
- Status
- Not open for further replies.