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Old 30th April 2011, 03:20 PM   #1
dadod is offline dadod  Croatia
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Default Groner Triple

Some time ago I noticed comments on D.Self book from Samuel Groner.
The part I would like to show now was about Triple output stage.

http://www.sg-acoustics.ch/analogue_...n_comments.pdf
It was this part of explanation that intrigued me to simulate an amp with this triple, but with bootstrapped CCS.

Depending on saturation characteristics of I2 and I3 this configuration
will yeld higher output swing compared to other triplr output stages.
For best efficiency these current sources could be replaced with bootstrapped
resistor loads, although this might result in somewhat reduced bias stability
with unregulated power supplies.

here is Groner triple as in his text.
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File Type: png Groner-triple.png (17.1 KB, 513 views)
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Old 30th April 2011, 03:33 PM   #2
dadod is offline dadod  Croatia
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Default Amp with Groner Triple

Simulation result.

distortion 1kHz 0.000012%
distortion 10kHz 0.000086%
distortion 20kHz 0.000318%

I attached circuit diagram, FFT, OLG, CLG, square wave on 8ohm and 8ohm//2uF

I had to add C19 an C22. Without them square wave diagram had ringing and overshoots.
It did not influence Opel Loop Gain.
J3 and J4 are constant current sources.
dado
Attached Images
File Type: png DADO-TMC-Groner-triple-sch.png (110.7 KB, 500 views)
File Type: png DADO-TPC-Groner-triple-FFT.png (144.5 KB, 475 views)
File Type: png DADO-TMC-Groner-triple-OLG.png (153.9 KB, 442 views)
File Type: png DADO-TMC-Groner-triple-CLG.png (152.5 KB, 404 views)
File Type: png DADO-TMC-Groner-triple-square-0.png (45.8 KB, 76 views)
File Type: png DADO-TMC-Groner-triple-square-2uF.png (46.4 KB, 82 views)
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Old 30th April 2011, 04:04 PM   #3
lineup is offline lineup  Sweden
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dadod View Post
Simulation result.

distortion 1kHz 0.000012%
distortion 10kHz 0.000086%
distortion 20kHz 0.000318%
How does this compare to for example one triple darlington output stage?
This is an output design I'd like to investigate.
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Old 30th April 2011, 08:36 PM   #4
CBS240 is offline CBS240  United States
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Looks like a double diamond buffer to me. A good circuit concept thats been around for quite a while. I like the bootstrap J-fet CCSs. J-fets make the best CCS don't you think?
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Old 30th April 2011, 08:58 PM   #5
dadod is offline dadod  Croatia
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lineup View Post
How does this compare to for example one triple darlington output stage?
This is an output design I'd like to investigate.
lineup,
It is very similar with triple EF. If you like to read more about this Groner triple follow the link I put in the first post.
What I did is just bootstrapp and FET CCS.
To know real difference soundwise it will be necessary to bild this amp.
dado
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Old 30th April 2011, 09:10 PM   #6
dadod is offline dadod  Croatia
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CBS240 View Post
Looks like a double diamond buffer to me. A good circuit concept thats been around for quite a while. I like the bootstrap J-fet CCSs. J-fets make the best CCS don't you think?
In simulation I used 2N3819, but in real bild I would use Supertex DN3135 or DN2535 high voltage vertical deplation mode DMOS fets excellent for CCS. I could not find spice model(for LTspice) for this FET.
http://www.datasheetcatalog.org/data...x/DN3135NW.pdf
dado
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Old 30th April 2011, 09:34 PM   #7
lineup is offline lineup  Sweden
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Supertex has spice models for download:
Supertex - SPICE Models
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Old 30th April 2011, 10:09 PM   #8
dimitri is offline dimitri  United States
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Default Groner Triple or

Phoenix Triple?

Rebirth of the Phoenix
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Old 1st May 2011, 12:26 AM   #9
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Yes , I am hours (or days) away from some sort of triple. Myself, B. Cordell, and many others discussed a similar type of circuit : Self type 3 EF (hybrid triple)... any pointers ??

I never got around to actually build it , but this now changes. I need a good sub amp . I have the PCB almost designed (below) and the cascoded luxman or blameless modules to hook to the triple. After seeing this groner/phoenix configuration , I feed "bold" with my couple square inches of PCB "real estate".
To have the required "overkill" , I will use ksa/c 1381/3503 , njw0281/0302 , njw21193-4 (pre/driver/main OP)
OS
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File Type: gif triple.GIF (36.2 KB, 103 views)
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Old 1st May 2011, 12:44 AM   #10
dimitri is offline dimitri  United States
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Awaiting your results
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