This is where I have taken this design lately - more power with cheaper and easier to get parts. Worthy of a new thread as it is quite different to the Fetzilla design:
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/solid-state/223341-simple-85w-amplifier.html#post3237184
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/solid-state/223341-simple-85w-amplifier.html#post3237184
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i was referred to this thread as a poor man's alternative to the SKA amp. i don't DIY so all of the tech talk loses me. could someone summarize the sound of this design regarding ease, detail, imaging etc. compared to other "giant killing" designs like class D & gainclones? what i did pick up in a few pages of skimming that this model is doable for $200 or so, and might interest me as something to hotrod up to maybe $400 or even $500 if there's significant gains to be made building an "ultimate version".
what qualities does this design have that someone who likes fast and detailed sound, but wants something a little less dry sounding than my panasonic class D? i'm not interested in too lush and romantic a sound, the ease and neutrality descriptions i've read for the simple killer amp made it sound like the kind of sound i'm looking for, but $1,000 USD is out of my budget. something that gets out of the way of the music without imparting as artificial a sound as the extremes of clinical and lush.
what qualities does this design have that someone who likes fast and detailed sound, but wants something a little less dry sounding than my panasonic class D? i'm not interested in too lush and romantic a sound, the ease and neutrality descriptions i've read for the simple killer amp made it sound like the kind of sound i'm looking for, but $1,000 USD is out of my budget. something that gets out of the way of the music without imparting as artificial a sound as the extremes of clinical and lush.
The group buys for this project are finished so you won't be able to just buy parts as a kit and assemble.
However, the discussions in the commercial sector builders thread might be more "sound quality" oriented,
if that's what you want to read.
Here is the documentation thread.There are other Fetzilla build threads in AKSA's forum.
However, the discussions in the commercial sector builders thread might be more "sound quality" oriented,
if that's what you want to read.
Here is the documentation thread.There are other Fetzilla build threads in AKSA's forum.
Budget,
The case, heatsink, hardware, transformer, PSU, cables & wires make up about 90% of the cost of an amplifier. The "amp" is usually as little as 10% of the cost of the whole amplifier.
If you buy retail, then the cost is inflated to cover labour, transport, advertising, packaging, selling and profit. The commercial version will achieve significant saving in the cost of amplifier components, but the final amplifier is still likely to be double what you spend on components alone.
Look at your amp and decide whether you want to spend $10, or $50, or some other amount and then allow about $200 to complete the the cheapest DIY version of the project. If you go the whole hog and spend $100 on the amp your total cost cannot be cheaper than ~$300. The absolute cheapest version would cost ~ $210 and the sound quality is likely to reflect that ten times difference in amp cost.
If you go outside the budget end of the build, you will find some Members that spend $10 to $30 on each component and end up with amplifiers that cost in excess of $5000.
The case, heatsink, hardware, transformer, PSU, cables & wires make up about 90% of the cost of an amplifier. The "amp" is usually as little as 10% of the cost of the whole amplifier.
If you buy retail, then the cost is inflated to cover labour, transport, advertising, packaging, selling and profit. The commercial version will achieve significant saving in the cost of amplifier components, but the final amplifier is still likely to be double what you spend on components alone.
Look at your amp and decide whether you want to spend $10, or $50, or some other amount and then allow about $200 to complete the the cheapest DIY version of the project. If you go the whole hog and spend $100 on the amp your total cost cannot be cheaper than ~$300. The absolute cheapest version would cost ~ $210 and the sound quality is likely to reflect that ten times difference in amp cost.
If you go outside the budget end of the build, you will find some Members that spend $10 to $30 on each component and end up with amplifiers that cost in excess of $5000.
Obviously, you don't shop at the boutique parts vendors' where you find just the connectors, wiring and case well exceed that figure. Components from even "budget" sellers like Parts Connection can be staggeringly priced like anywhere from $3-90 for a bog-standard NOS film/foil 1uF cap, apparently depending on how scarce they are and "testimonials" seen on the net.
Take a look at the MSRP ($2,177 ea.) for the 10uF 'toob' coupling cap - absolute bargain at just $899.95 (Ahem!)
DUELUND Cast - PIO (Paper In Oil) Electronic Capacitor new Round Body
Much of Hi-fi is in the perception of high quality, relevant or not to audio and these guys know and exploit it. I think absurdium prices are just normal in selling audio oriented accessories and components, supporting otherwise unviable businesses, as it has been for decades.
like i said, i'd be willing to invest up to $500 in total parts for as ultimate a hot rodded design as possible but when a piece of gear gets close to $1,000, my interest level really drops, especially as i'm looking to invest $700 or more in a schiit gungnir DAC that's about the limit of what i'm comfortable spending on a piece of gear, and with a power amp, $500 is probably my limit as a pre-amp, or at least an expensive step attenuator is still needed to complete the package.
i like getting gear as cheap as possible, but will stretch my budget for significant improvements. i've already considered the $750 factory hotrodded jolida integrated tube amp.
i'll take a look at that link and try reading up on the layman's impressions. thanks.
i wasn't trying to imply fetzilla is an inferior product if i called it a "poor man's SKA" and in fact complimenting it as a value as i like to call my energy speakers poor man's B&Ws and in fact think they might be even better with their ports plugged with smaller 5 1/4" kevlar woofers that are surely more punchy and tight sounding than 6 1/2" ported ones.
there are AMAZING values at the low end of the price spectrum, then you have insane gear like $100k ongakus etc. my $15 sonic impact amp was an insane bargain. i wish it hadn't blown driving it as hard as possible in a bike system, but i have a couple dayton modules and a 25-40w sure module too for future portable use.
if so many people are so excited about fetzilla, there has to be some legit reason for it.
i like getting gear as cheap as possible, but will stretch my budget for significant improvements. i've already considered the $750 factory hotrodded jolida integrated tube amp.
i'll take a look at that link and try reading up on the layman's impressions. thanks.
i wasn't trying to imply fetzilla is an inferior product if i called it a "poor man's SKA" and in fact complimenting it as a value as i like to call my energy speakers poor man's B&Ws and in fact think they might be even better with their ports plugged with smaller 5 1/4" kevlar woofers that are surely more punchy and tight sounding than 6 1/2" ported ones.
there are AMAZING values at the low end of the price spectrum, then you have insane gear like $100k ongakus etc. my $15 sonic impact amp was an insane bargain. i wish it hadn't blown driving it as hard as possible in a bike system, but i have a couple dayton modules and a 25-40w sure module too for future portable use.
if so many people are so excited about fetzilla, there has to be some legit reason for it.
hey, how about multi-thousand dollar interconnects and speaker cables? i'm surprised no one's made 24 karat gold cables yet.
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well i might be inclined to upgrade an amp down the road as there's a hot rodded mc cormack in a local shop for $1200, but i was planning on upgrading the DAC to something i'd only have to buy once as i see too many compromises in cheaper units that would force an upgrade down the road. i'm not a fan of having to buy something more than once.
originally, like i thought i said, i was looking into just building a gain clone as those are really simple and should be reasonablly cheap and easy to build, but i'd like something better up to the $500 range.
i'm not a fan of buying used gear at all. i've had terrible luck with that route and think of it as someone unloading their junk for one reason or another. i bought an emax sampler once on consignment not knowing i needed a midi keyboard to test it which i wouldn't have been able to do anyways as i'd only been given 1/2 an owner's manual only to find out the hard drive howled like a banshee and it had other issues. the fostex 8 track reel to reel i bought for about $1,000 had one bad channel or power meter and so on. used gear and i don't get along unless i can try it before i buy it.
i can't picture finding any world class amps used for $500 or so either as the "class b+" stuff is always at least $2,000 in stereophile, not that i totally trust theiir reviews or anything.
i would have thought building whatever from a kit or even a parts list would be the cheapest route to a satisfactory design, especially if i spent money on upgrades that matter the most.
i think i'll just buy s trends amp. it should clearly sound better than my panasonic according tpo the shootout it appeared in, and is only about $150 which is dirt cheap for a "high end" amp, but the kingrex is supposed to be even warmer and more musical and still under my $500 limit. i do like the sound of class D.
my thinking too is that right now, i'm using my 5 year old plus panasonic receiver's DAC or my decade old sony DVD player's internal and not getting a perfect balance of natural detail and speed with non fatiguing ease. a class A+ grade DAC like the gungnir which should be a little better than a class A rated benchmark trying to compare review puzzle pieces would give me a better idea where i stand with my panasonic receiver's amp section too.
i've never used an outboard DAC and don't want to investing a cheap one with some flaws that will eventually lead me to another upgrade. i'd like something i can live with as long as it keeps working and not feel the need to upgrade like i do now with higher resolution speakers than the boomy cabinet mission M71s and KEF ditton 100s i had in between my energy RC-10s and NHT superzeros. they're demanding a better source as they're so revealing.
oh yeah... the NAD receiver i bought had a capacitor issue and something else that was buggy too. nope... i only buy used gear if i can demo it, or it's dirt cheap like the dittons at $40 i think.
originally, like i thought i said, i was looking into just building a gain clone as those are really simple and should be reasonablly cheap and easy to build, but i'd like something better up to the $500 range.
i'm not a fan of buying used gear at all. i've had terrible luck with that route and think of it as someone unloading their junk for one reason or another. i bought an emax sampler once on consignment not knowing i needed a midi keyboard to test it which i wouldn't have been able to do anyways as i'd only been given 1/2 an owner's manual only to find out the hard drive howled like a banshee and it had other issues. the fostex 8 track reel to reel i bought for about $1,000 had one bad channel or power meter and so on. used gear and i don't get along unless i can try it before i buy it.
i can't picture finding any world class amps used for $500 or so either as the "class b+" stuff is always at least $2,000 in stereophile, not that i totally trust theiir reviews or anything.
i would have thought building whatever from a kit or even a parts list would be the cheapest route to a satisfactory design, especially if i spent money on upgrades that matter the most.
i think i'll just buy s trends amp. it should clearly sound better than my panasonic according tpo the shootout it appeared in, and is only about $150 which is dirt cheap for a "high end" amp, but the kingrex is supposed to be even warmer and more musical and still under my $500 limit. i do like the sound of class D.
my thinking too is that right now, i'm using my 5 year old plus panasonic receiver's DAC or my decade old sony DVD player's internal and not getting a perfect balance of natural detail and speed with non fatiguing ease. a class A+ grade DAC like the gungnir which should be a little better than a class A rated benchmark trying to compare review puzzle pieces would give me a better idea where i stand with my panasonic receiver's amp section too.
i've never used an outboard DAC and don't want to investing a cheap one with some flaws that will eventually lead me to another upgrade. i'd like something i can live with as long as it keeps working and not feel the need to upgrade like i do now with higher resolution speakers than the boomy cabinet mission M71s and KEF ditton 100s i had in between my energy RC-10s and NHT superzeros. they're demanding a better source as they're so revealing.
oh yeah... the NAD receiver i bought had a capacitor issue and something else that was buggy too. nope... i only buy used gear if i can demo it, or it's dirt cheap like the dittons at $40 i think.
It seems you think in retail product terms so it would be pointless considering DIY projects unless you first understood what we or any builders for that matter, have to consider when taking on a pretty intensive string of constructional tasks in building amplifiers from scratch. The technobabble is not show. If you don't come to grasping it, DIY success will elude you when you tackle anything that requires an understanding of how things work and communicating with those trying to help you, as inevitably you will require.
Kits that you buy everything in a box with phone book size instructions are more expensive than finished products now and the better presented, the more lame the product, generally. The really cheap chipamp kits are quite good if you realise they need a lot more parts than just a minute PCB that serves mainly as a connector and a few capacitors. The point is that you will need to engage in the technology to get best results and then to troubleshoot or refine it as required. Throwing together cheapest standard parts seldom results acceptably. You then have to learn how to improve sensibly to even bring them up to commercial standards, if the minimal PCBs permit it, that is.
This all involves techno stuff, techno speak and is uninteresting to a retail customer.
Forums like Audiokarma are all about subjective assessments and guys comparing their purchases. Even scientific test methods are banned. Perhaps that's what you'd prefer to read and find out what really sounds good to some people or what is just craptanium in an expensive case. Likely you can then at least buy what you read about.
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True. Many great options under 1000$/€ on the used market, mostly stuff that would cost about the same to DIY.
That doesnt seem absurd to me at all, depends on the amount of power needed from the amp. The difficulty of building a proper DAC oneself is a few times lower than for a pre or power amplifier.
Banned? I read that forum sometimes and looks just like one of the many for general chat about audio gear, with an eye to vintage.
i'm absolutely positive that all of the techspeak here is relevant for each individual trying to tweak "their version" of the amp... i would think that unless someone were using really bad parts that are 10% or more out of spec though that the same design should offer a reasonably close range of sounds, and what i mean, i gues is i'd look for "an official parts list" of approved parts that have already been tested in a design so everyone's building the exact same unit from the exact same parts sources.
in my mind, if a design is finalized, it shouldn't need further refinements. i guess everyone wants to keep refining the design, but if i were to attempt something like this, i'd rather build a "tied and true" version where all of the parts are correct to begin with.
yes, electroniics, beyond very basic stuff like 2x watts per +3dB, is out of my realm of knowledge, but if i had all of the info needed to build an amp with no potential surprises like resistors can be wired backwards which is in no way apparent without taking a college level course to build something a little more complex than a model kit, i could build an amp i think. before, i thought resistors just did what their name says... resist current like a valve which works the same in either direction. i imagine there's other surprises like that and thatr you can't simply solder parts in the correct place without also noting polaritties.
the more i try and get into building an am it seems, the less likely it is that it will happen and i will just buy an off the shelf unit as apparently a tried and true design with all of the info needed to get it right the first time doesn't seem to exist short of buying a kit that costs more than many decent amps like the kingrex.
it's starting to sound like making parts grade improvements in a design actually causes more problems than it creates. i would have thought, for example, upgrading to 1% resistors in a design would always yield negligible to positive results and so on with higher grade capacitors especially. there's some of my basic electronics knowledge... capacitors can improve the sound of amps as well as speakers, and more little caps are better than one big one, and you just add values together in parallel.
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Hi fansipan, welcome to DIYaudio. This thread is a development thread, so there are many schematics and they are submitted by a few guys who are still trying different ideas.
There are threads in the Manufacturers forum for one version by Greg H2 that was selected by AKSA who sponsored group buys of this "official" Fetzilla amplifier. Read this first thread; it is all there but the group buys are finished - nothing is available to purchase. http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/aksa/191053-swordfishy-aspen-fetzilla-power-amp.html
i'm cured... not going to DIY. the TBI milenium MG3 seems to strike a perfect balance between detail and ease, is $500, right where i'm happy, and is class D which i do like, but not as etched as the tech can sound, especially on metal domes.
the reviews make it sound in a similar sonic ballpark to fetzilla etc., but without all the expense and hassle of trying to DIY it, not as hobbyist fun, but budgetary necessity. if the cheap trends amp is supposed to be better than my own panasonic, and the TBI clearly superior to that, it sounds about like exactly what i'm looking for and 30 wpc is enough for the levels i listen to. now you can resume talking your strange language about re-routing power through the tertiary phase plasma conduit unimpeded.
the reviews make it sound in a similar sonic ballpark to fetzilla etc., but without all the expense and hassle of trying to DIY it, not as hobbyist fun, but budgetary necessity. if the cheap trends amp is supposed to be better than my own panasonic, and the TBI clearly superior to that, it sounds about like exactly what i'm looking for and 30 wpc is enough for the levels i listen to. now you can resume talking your strange language about re-routing power through the tertiary phase plasma conduit unimpeded.
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