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Old 26th March 2011, 05:08 PM   #11
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Default Thank you Jon2xflash and Rodeodave

It is a very old idea i had in 1963 i think..... as needed to do things in very cheap way... so, i have developed this style where i can observe tracks and i go checking while building the circuit.... if we do from left to rigth to rigth handed guy, then everything is fine..no parts burned by the soldering iron...i love the method..but it is not pretty i have to recognize..but for small circuits, surrounding circuits, small supplies, attenuators, simple circuits for VU meters and these small things it works very well.

I would like to see a close up picture of your method...a video or a nice picture..i have never use blade...i used once a high speed drilling machine, a dremmel, with a small rounded tip that destroyed and removed some copper..so, i was producing the lines exists in between two copper tracks...but was not good...too much noisy, dirty and the drilling machine was so fast that burned the board because of friction.

Yes, the name in my country is the same "acido Muriatico" or Muriatic Acid.... works fine..not so dirty alike the ferric thing that overheats and boils when we mix the grains (powder) with watter.... an exothermic reaction makes the liquid easy reach 100 degrees celsius... when we do not know this happens we melt the plastic thing we use to produce the mixture..... also damages ceramics and destroy other things..if touches clothing..no way to remove...the stain will be there for the ethernity.

regards,

Carlos
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Last edited by destroyer X; 26th March 2011 at 05:13 PM.
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Old 26th March 2011, 08:14 PM   #12
dvh99 is offline dvh99  Netherlands
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i think the nacl (sodium chloride) provides cl- ions that react with the copper so copper ions can be made, when all the cl- ions are used by the copper ions (cu2+) there is need for more salt. the cl- ions forms copper di chloride with cu2+.

oops i just read in the article the same i wrote here, well it makes sense to me anyhow.
i feel silly now.

Last edited by dvh99; 26th March 2011 at 08:40 PM.
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Old 26th March 2011, 09:33 PM   #13
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I have only once made homemade pcbs and it was torturous.
Under etched partly and over etched partly.
Difficult to solder afterwards.
Difficult to drill accurately.

I much prefer a pro made pcb, etch resist and tinned pads make things much easier.

I guess for one off's homemade is cheap but for something pro looking requires a pro made pcb.
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Old 26th March 2011, 09:59 PM   #14
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Default Yes...no doubts a professionally etched is hundred percent better

But it is not a good idea to etch a board to give a try in an idea...we may loose time and the board....for prototyping and adjustments, protoboard and this type of board is better..even the Universal ones are a hell to solder and dissolder.

You know what i mean?... not to make to last forever something that may not last more than a small time while you try something.

I have assembled thousands..imagine if i had ordered each one of these boards to give a try in something.... the money i would have lost...but of course..if someone assemble 2 or 3 amplifiers whole life...a good idea is to order boards from manufacturers.

regards,

Carlos
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Last edited by destroyer X; 26th March 2011 at 10:06 PM.
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Old 26th March 2011, 10:52 PM   #15
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I have no idea why diy'ers can't get perfect toner transfer ,
Me and MJL have it perfected ... 20 minutes from printer to drill.
Good enough to sell $$$$ -

Click the image to open in full size.

NO pits or undercut - sprint to tinned PCB in minutes
Click the image to open in full size.
Click the image to open in full size.

I am at a few hundred boards now , I screwed up on maybe 3-4 of them.
I just tried the vinegar/salt/h2o2 .. it made a perfect board. The toner transfer is the main process , ONLY HP toner will work (some replacement HP toners as well) ... it is low melting point- 215C. Even my tiny letters and 1-2mil "targets" come out with much definition. DIY'ers must try harder , read the instructions on googled "toner transfer" and HCL based acid etching , practice makes perfect. I just made a bubbler for my HCL , after bubbling for more hours , I can get 3 times the etching done (with a little salt - makes more CuCL2 ). As far as the "pro" ones , just the screenprinting is better .. but I will have that beat next ... ALL true DIY.

OS
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Old 27th March 2011, 12:01 AM   #16
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Default Nah.... this method is confused..the photographic paper is a hell hard to remove

it sticks into the board...when you remove pieces of toner goes out and left failures.... people use to repeat several times the operation using hot iron..also ou have to drill the board.

Not only me, all my friends said the method is a hell hard to be made at home..all them have complained a lot....i give up to use the hot iron..the toner transference method... but i can see (do not know how many times you repeated the transference till you succeed) you have made a good job and transistor is very good doing these things....well... transistor is just awsome (MJL.....)

This method is good if you're not making prototype.... a final one...but really takes a lot of time doing it and need a lot of skills...people tell us the glories but they use to hide the several boards they lost trying..this is expensive and confused to make...i have tried several times and i felt this extremelly hard to be made...takes a lot of time..needs a printer..a photographic paper...to remove you have to put it into water..need skills to use the hot iron, .... not a good idea.

To do this way it is better to order boards from manufacturer, because at the end your cost is high considering the several time you have tried...the time you spend and the need to prepare the image using computer and software.

It is not in a minute or two.... only drilling you spend several minutes to each board... and image preparation...use of software.... if you have not the laser printer you have to find a shop to produce copies (here is this way), the image transference with hot iron is difficult, the paper can skid..when you remove paper, the toner tracks use to be often removed too, left failures in the lines.... lines are not straigth..border lines are very ugly.

Observe the watch and make notes..you spend more than an hour to produce a board..that hour is be finishing while you will be half way to finish your drilling work (boring thing)

You are skilled doing that, transistor too...but really, the method is painfull alike a kick in between........our patience.

To produce and assemble this you spend hours working....my method is a poor man's method....really simple and you can produce the board and assemble simple circuits in less than 5 minutes.... your method spend much more than that just drilling the hell thing...also you cannot glue your board into the chassis or you will produce shorts....uncle charlie super board (ahahahahaha!) accept you to glue it to the chassis and ready and yours cannot.

Also your method have not invented anything.....mine invented the SMD..ehehehehehehe.

regards,

Carlos
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These words sounds alike English..but they are not.. these are words without meaning, just sounds made by humans; https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_X_7iMHugXM

Last edited by destroyer X; 27th March 2011 at 12:09 AM.
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Old 27th March 2011, 12:56 AM   #17
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Soak it in soapy water for 30 minutes !! . Use photo paper or just a glossy magazine. Clean the blank board with no edge burrs with acetone. Press super hard on iron , soak in the warm water , rub the paper off. My kids can do it.
The 3-4 I have messed up were from the edge "burr" or a greasy fingerprint.
That is out of about 270+ boards- all different sizes. (even 2 oz. FR-4)

I even do "mass- production" , 6 at a time (below). If you practice , you will get it right , just like soldering.
What are you talking about ?? HOURS.. I can do 6 amps completely drilled, stuffed, and tested in 2 hours. For just the boards ,
I could do 12+ in 2 hours ... it only takes 5 minutes to etch.

PS- I can drill each of those boards below in 3-4 min. all 6 in 20+ (2 hole sizes) also, (below 2) is after the transfer and soapy water/rubbing. Just practice this step before etching ... it is the most important.
No secrets ....
I showed this level of DIY to everybody :
The MONGREL (supersym II)
OS
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File Type: jpg tt.jpg (148.9 KB, 215 views)
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Last edited by ostripper; 27th March 2011 at 01:16 AM.
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Old 27th March 2011, 01:09 AM   #18
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Who's winning?
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Old 27th March 2011, 01:21 AM   #19
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No winning , Carlos just is not proficient at it ... so he tells everybody else it is not a worthy technique. (Some) can produce "near" board house quality. And , it doesn't take hours (after doing a few).

This sure beats the chinese delaminated pad garbage boards with the pretty colors ( desolder 100 times on my FR-4).

OS
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Old 27th March 2011, 06:33 AM   #20
Art M is offline Art M  United States
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Quote:
Originally Posted by destroyer X View Post

To do this way it is better to order boards from manufacturer, because at the end your cost is high considering the several time you have tried...the time you spend and the need to prepare the image using computer and software.

regards,

Carlos
It is probably best to order the whole amplifier Ready Made from the manufacturer if the objective is to save time and money. If the desire is for the " HeathKit " experience, buy professionally made boards and be assured that your unit will basically look and perform exactly like your neighbors. Your boards will also fail and burn up like your neighbors....LOL

It is a lot more exciting for me to learn new skills such as playing with circuits and then making some boards to be tested. Any fool (like me) can toss some ready made Gerbers to the board house. Some of the excellent Chinese copies make the "professional" boards manufactured for our forums look rather silly.
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