Go Back   Home > Forums > Amplifiers > Solid State
Home Forums Rules Articles Store Gallery Blogs Register Donations FAQ Calendar Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read

Solid State Talk all about solid state amplification.

Please consider donating to help us continue to serve you.

Ads on/off / Custom Title / More PMs / More album space / Advanced printing & mass image saving
Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old 14th November 2010, 09:35 AM   #1
diyAudio Member
 
janneman's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2002
Location: Where Germany, The Netherlands and Belgium meet
Blog Entries: 6
Default Why are Power Transistors so slow?

Why are power transistors (bjt's) so slow, compared to small-signal transistors? Small-signal devices have bandwidths into the 100's of MHz or even GHz. Medium power devices have lower bandwidths. High power transistors are slower yet. Is it a result of the construction to make them rugged to withstand higher powers, or is there another mechanism?

jan didden
__________________
/Another new issue: Linear Audio Volume 3!
  Reply With Quote
Old 14th November 2010, 09:46 AM   #2
Bonsai is offline Bonsai  Taiwan
diyAudio Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Taipei, Taiwan
This sounds like rhetorical question Jan.
__________________
bonsai
http://www.hifisonix.com/
  Reply With Quote
Old 14th November 2010, 09:51 AM   #3
diyAudio Member
 
janneman's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2002
Location: Where Germany, The Netherlands and Belgium meet
Blog Entries: 6
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bonsai View Post
This sounds like rhetorical question Jan.
Huh? Why?

jan didden
__________________
/Another new issue: Linear Audio Volume 3!
  Reply With Quote
Old 14th November 2010, 09:51 AM   #4
AKSA is offline AKSA  Australia
diyAudio Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2001
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Jan,

Don't you know?
__________________
Aspen Amplifiers P/L (Australia)
www.aksaonline.com
  Reply With Quote
Old 14th November 2010, 09:51 AM   #5
Elvee is offline Elvee  Belgium
diyAudio Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
The answer is pretty straightforward:
Mobility
  Reply With Quote
Old 14th November 2010, 10:18 AM   #6
diyAudio Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Hello

A power transistor do have a thicker base-collector-emitor sandwitch and the electrons take more time to travel in that silicon substrat, resulting in a lower speed.

Bye

Gaetan

Last edited by gaetan8888; 14th November 2010 at 10:33 AM.
  Reply With Quote
Old 14th November 2010, 10:21 AM   #7
DF96 is offline DF96  England
diyAudio Member
 
Join Date: May 2007
I thought it was the base thickness, not the substrate. The substrate is merely what the BJT is built on top of? A thick base stores lots of charge carriers, and they take time to cross it from emitter to collector.
  Reply With Quote
Old 14th November 2010, 10:21 AM   #8
diyAudio Member
 
janneman's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2002
Location: Where Germany, The Netherlands and Belgium meet
Blog Entries: 6
Quote:
Originally Posted by Elvee View Post
The answer is pretty straightforward:
Mobility
So, more doping lowers mobility. Does that mean power transistors have more doping than small-signal transistors?
And does electron mobility have a relation to device bandwidth?

jan didden
__________________
/Another new issue: Linear Audio Volume 3!
  Reply With Quote
Old 14th November 2010, 10:24 AM   #9
diyAudio Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Quote:
Originally Posted by DF96 View Post
I thought it was the base thickness, not the substrate. The substrate is merely what the BJT is built on top of? A thick base stores lots of charge carriers, and they take time to cross it from emitter to collector.
Hello

Substrat are not the right name, I've corrected it, I was meaning lateral thickness not vertical, like a thicker base-collector-emitor sandwitch.

Sorry for my limited english explanation, I'm french speaking.

Bye

Gaetan

Last edited by gaetan8888; 14th November 2010 at 10:35 AM.
  Reply With Quote
Old 14th November 2010, 10:25 AM   #10
diyAudio Member
 
Sch3mat1c's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Milwaukee, WI
Send a message via ICQ to Sch3mat1c Send a message via AIM to Sch3mat1c
Actually, it's not very self-explanatory...

RF transistors often have higher doping levels, which is necessary due to the smaller feature size or reduced carrier lifetime.

If doping were the only explanation, power transistors would work very well indeed, because they usually have fairly light doping. High voltage transistors (up to 1500Vcbo in HOTs, and more in industrial use) necessarily have very light doping, on the order of 10^14, or a P-I-N structure at the collector, just like a high voltage diode, and for the same reason: to minimize electric field strength, maximizing breakdown voltage.

However, this is not the case. The reason is structure. Most transistors are planar. This worked nicely for some of the first planar transistors, like 2N2222, which boasts a ~150MHz fT (though not part of the spec). It didn't work so well for the first planar power transistors, like 2N3055, which is a poor power transistor by any measure. They're basically the same thing, so why are they so different? A few reasons. One, if they are truely the same process, then the doping and depth will be equal, but the area much wider. A thin base has a large base-spreading resistance, so it takes a long time to drive the base. Generally, the emitter is broken up into strips, giving more base contact area. The finer this structure, the more emitter "fingers" and base edges are brought out, the faster it runs.

RF power transistors are little more than monolithic arrays of 2N3904s. They may be printed on a, say, ~2um feature size, or mechanically connected, where the emitters are built as islands rather than fingers; a bond wire per emitter is required! Obviously, bond wires have lower capacitance than metallization which overlays the base and collector.

Other reasons include voltage capacity, which is generally higher. (Yes, there are a few 200, 300, even 450V small-signal transistors.) hFE goes up with doping, so the light doping required to obtain the higher breakdown voltage necessarily reduces hFE. (Those 1500Vcbo transistors have a typical saturated hFE ~= 2.5!!)

Incidentially, there are a few medium power transistors with ridiculous bandwidth. These are made for high resolution CRT drivers, and include the 2SC3597. I don't recommend using one as VAS unless you damn well know what you're doing!

Tim
__________________
See my Electronics webpage -- the home of Vacuum Tube Drag Racing.
The key to being a successful Audiophile: "I reject your reality and substitute my own!"
  Reply With Quote

Reply


Hide this!Advertise here!

Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Fairchild power transistors glen65 Parts 5 13th December 2009 02:11 PM
Mounting power transistors loovet Pass Labs 6 29th October 2007 09:53 PM
Power transistors for DoZ? bezobraznia Solid State 2 5th February 2005 01:05 PM
SGS power transistors hifiboy Solid State 0 4th October 2004 07:44 AM
Updating old power transistors hifileslie Solid State 5 24th August 2002 04:44 PM


New To Site? Need Help?

All times are GMT. The time now is 03:56 PM.

Page generated in 0.11644 seconds (78.82% PHP - 21.18% MySQL) with 11 queries

Copyright ©1999-2012 diyAudio