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Old 10th September 2010, 07:20 PM   #11
CBS240 is offline CBS240  United States
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....Hi-end really...... Guys building it would probably not even consider BC series parts.
I suppose it depends on what the intended circuit function of the device is. Heck I'd even use an old 3904/3906 type for some functions where Hfe, Ft, Cob, or Vceo isn't a factor. But for these types of input stages, I would go with 'manufacture-ally matched'. Current & voltage symmetry just comes out better. Thanks to the modern age there are some really high class signal transistors out there for reasonable price.
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Old 10th September 2010, 08:20 PM   #12
sajti is offline sajti  Hungary
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----now days we dont know any more what exactly we buy ....
got my shelf 200 pcs of BC549 made by philips all of them same batch but hfe varied from 180 to 450 ... makes no sense

got myshelf 100pcs BC557 from siemens ( ?? ) had no batch number onthem only the number 341 ....99% of them had hfe of 341 !!!!!!probably military specs that fell of in the market by accidednt
I had same experience with the Onsemi NJW0281/0302. The 140 pcs of NPN has the Hfe between 84 and 122, the 140 pcs of PNP has the gain 98 and 120, but 90% of them between 99 and 106!!!!.
I measured them with 100mA current.

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Old 11th September 2010, 05:23 AM   #13
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I know that you are right there for serious projects, CBS. I'm just a tightwad when it comes to Semis. Just consider the power and quality now possible from a mere $5 pair of plastic OP transistors!

I did have a lot of success with Supermatch LM394H years ago. I also used a few MAT 02,3,4 in low level mic./MC preamps but the price/availability see-saw was really annoying. Today, long distance buying of these rarer components is a breeze for sure. If vendors were more considerate about shipping options/charges, I would buy a lot more "manufacturally-matched" and specialised parts.

If our eyes, hands and PCB skills are up to it, there are very good and cheap SMT array options too. However, adapting older and high VCE requirement circuits in amps, such as we love to do here on DIY-A, is still gonna be difficult for pairs and complements.

It's probably O/T but considering linearity again; I wonder why there is wide preference for mirror image/complementary input topology? If complementary matches are never so good as same type NPN or PNP, then the imbalance must increase input stage distortion significantly. Randy Slone's liking for it was based on PA type issues, so no help there.
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Old 11th September 2010, 05:46 AM   #14
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Originally Posted by sajti View Post
I had same experience with the Onsemi NJW0281/0302. The 140 pcs of NPN has the Hfe between 84 and 122, the 140 pcs of PNP has the gain 98 and 120, but 90% of them between 99 and 106!!!!.
I measured them with 100mA current.

Sajti
I use these lovelies almost exclusively.. at $1.40 each what a deal!! most are between 90-115 P and N channel. I have no problem finding 4 pairs or 2 pairs that are within 2 Hfe. I just bought 25 pair, all the same date code.

On-semi is VERY consistent with both the models and the actual devices.

OS
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Old 11th September 2010, 08:17 AM   #15
CBS240 is offline CBS240  United States
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Originally Posted by Ian Finch View Post
I know that you are right there for serious projects, CBS. I'm just a tightwad when it comes to Semis. Just consider the power and quality now possible from a mere $5 pair of plastic OP transistors!

If our eyes, hands and PCB skills are up to it, there are very good and cheap SMT array options too. However, adapting older and high VCE requirement circuits in amps, such as we love to do here on DIY-A, is still gonna be difficult for pairs and complements.

It's probably O/T but considering linearity again; I wonder why there is wide preference for mirror image/complementary input topology? If complementary matches are never so good as same type NPN or PNP, then the imbalance must increase input stage distortion significantly. Randy Slone's liking for it was based on PA type issues, so no help there.
I'm a tightwad too...my output stage consists of two pair of TO-220 fets that cost a total of $4.50. 22S of Gm and Pd over 40W at 125C...TO-220 As for linearity, it seems to be pretty good being driven by HEC network.

As for PCB layout and component choice, I'm a big fan of using as little current as possible and using acordingly sized components. Arrays are better because it's less components to solder together, even if it is SOT-563. Now they have SOT-963. I have not gotten the courage to try them yet, they seem to be expensive compared to SOT-563 part and the tiny space saved is not worth it. I do use some SOT-923 transistors in this circuit, such as these and these nice linear gain (~300 @ 1mA) transistors from Toshiba.

But then there are a lot of 'odd' (for around here) things done in this amplifier. It is a balanced amp though, and I think that the symetry of drive Z and CGBW has something to do with the drive toward symetry. This ver prototype amp is designed to have very low distortion and particularly common mode distortions and would be nearly impossible without matched arrays.
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Last edited by CBS240; 11th September 2010 at 08:21 AM.
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Old 11th September 2010, 08:45 AM   #16
sajti is offline sajti  Hungary
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Originally Posted by ostripper View Post
I use these lovelies almost exclusively.. at $1.40 each what a deal!! most are between 90-115 P and N channel. I have no problem finding 4 pairs or 2 pairs that are within 2 Hfe. I just bought 25 pair, all the same date code.

On-semi is VERY consistent with both the models and the actual devices.

OS
I have lot of NPN-s with hfe 84-95, and no PNP pairs. So finally I made about 70 well matched pairs (less than 1%!). For more pairs I recommend to order more NPN-s. But for triple output the NPN/PNP match is not very important.
I like them too, and I use many of them, because they are cheap, have very low internal capacitances.

Sajti
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Old 11th September 2010, 06:30 PM   #17
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Oh, whoa....Nice bit of PCB work there. Has this been posted with schematic etc. before, CBS, or is that not the plan? Thanks for posting the spec sheets too. All I need now is new close up specs to check it out and maybe think about some more SMT myself!
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Old 11th September 2010, 07:00 PM   #18
CBS240 is offline CBS240  United States
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If your going to go SMT, you might as well go with SMD resistors, and caps too. The SMD metal film resistors are nice in terms of noise and the small COG pf caps are great for compensation duty, and they're cheap. I'm going to use some 0201 size resistors in the next model. For resistors that have uW to a few mW of power, why not? I do know that if you intend to have to hand solder 0201's, you should leave a bit longer solder mask pads in the PCB and never bury any pads within large copper fills.

Oh, and that amp is the latest version of my modular bridge amp but I have not posted all the schematics, just a couple of sections. There's a thread somewhere I will have to look it up.

But now I have to get ready ()to go to a football game (not soccer)
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Old 12th September 2010, 03:36 AM   #19
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At the OP stage; have you guys tried NJW21193/4 as triple complements - ie triple EF or close? It's not straightforward comparing Hfe at 8W with the 3W spec of the Toshiba clones 3281/1302 and 5200/1493, but I assume the 21193/4 are lower with lower Ft too, which might be safer in that application.

OK, price is higher and availability is not so good (do any major distributors hold stock?). Stability is a greater issue though. Os, you work with plenty of triples - any thoughts?
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Old 12th September 2010, 09:16 PM   #20
sajti is offline sajti  Hungary
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I used 21193/94. They are really rugged devices. If You want to build PA amplifier, than You have to use them. Unfortunately the Hfe is worse than the 3281/1302 family. I measured hfe=30 on some NPNs, with Ic=100mA, and there was no PNP less than 80...

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