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Old 10th July 2013, 07:54 PM   #3961
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> 'feedback intermodulation' (FID anyone?)
FBI
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Old 10th July 2013, 08:02 PM   #3962
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Another shot at a VAS alternative: Voltage Actuator Stage! Guesss what: we can comfortably keep calling it VAS

In seriousness, that description isn't bad at all - it describes the primary function of the VAS: generate the desired voltage swing. The stage itself is an actuator controlled by the IPS. This meaning takes no assumption about points of view (voltage/current/impedancec mode, either input or output) and therefore just can't be wrong now can it?
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Old 10th July 2013, 08:04 PM   #3963
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kindhornman View Post
Quote Jan Didden,
"BTW Has anyone here started to read Doug Self's 6th edition? I just stumbled on a great section titled 'feedback intermodulation' (FID anyone?).
He provides, among other very worthwhile things, a solid technical reason why it is indeed a Good Thing to linearise your amp before applying nfb"

. Originally Posted by scott wurcer Click the image to open in full size.
Since it is well known for a long time that a non-linearity enclosed in a feedback loop creates new harmonics even from the simplest mathematical treatment, I don't see how this issue could be approached in a way that has nothing to do with previous results.

Didden,

Ah! One of the things Douglas found is that the shape of the initial increase of harmonic levels with increasing feedback, and the subsequent decrease when feedback continues to be increased, is very much dependent on the initial non-linearity of the forward path. (Howzzat for a short, succinct sentence?).

That may be somewhat intuitive of course but the upshot is that a small improvement in forward path linearity even to the detriment of the available feedback factor can greatly decrease this 'Feedback InterModulation'. At least that it how I read it.
But I'd like to hear how others look at this. It's somewhere around page 80 in his book.

Bob,
Having read your section on Negative Feedback what do you think of all this? Intuitively you would think that a more linear amplifier would require less feedback to linearize but it seems to go against the technical arguments about the loop speed for a feedback network and bandwidth if I am getting any of this correct.
This sounds like a partial re-hash of what I referred to as Spectral Growth Distortion (SGD) in my book's Chapter 24, starting at page 502. The matter is basically a derivative of Baxandalls much-abused findings. This has been discussed ad nausium here at DIYaudio. However, if Doug has linked the IM consequences of SGD to a tradeoff of open-loop linearity with amount of feedback in determining overall distortion, that may be a different way of looking at the same problem.

In any case, I and most others I think, have always strongly advocated getting the open loop amplifier as linear as possible before throwing a bunch of NFB around it. Moreover, making the open loop more linear does not usually force you to trade away amount of negative feedback you use. Adding degeneration to the input stage or the VAS, for example, does not take away gain at your disposal for negative feedback loop gain.

There is no need to have less loop speed and bandwidth as a result of making the open loop more linear.

Making the open loop more linear will, however, often mean using more transistors, such as an input cascode, a good current mirror, a 2 transistor VAS, a push-pull VAS, a cascoded VAS, or an output Triple. While these may go against the grain of the simpler-is-better advocates, they do not usually go against amount of loop gain or safe ULGF.

Cheers,
Bob
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Old 10th July 2013, 08:08 PM   #3964
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You get it Bob I appreciate your line of thinking.

Edit: I think I should buy your book just because
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Old 10th July 2013, 08:16 PM   #3965
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Originally Posted by Bob Cordell View Post
Adding degeneration to the input stage or the VAS, for example, does not take away gain at your disposal for negative feedback loop gain.
Degenerating the input stage DOES reduce forward path gain, if the minor loop compensation remains unchanged, and, therefore, the amount of loop gain you can apply.

On the other hand, degenerating the TIS has no first order effect on the forward path gain since the second stage takes a current input and not a voltage. Therefore, degenarating the TIS does not reduce the loop gain of the amplifier.

Last edited by michaelkiwanuka; 10th July 2013 at 08:33 PM.
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Old 10th July 2013, 08:17 PM   #3966
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Bob,
Thank you,
I was wondering if Doug had changed his basic concept on the feedback circuit and the initial circuit design. I will have to read his current book and see exactly what he is now proposing or how he has refined his thinking in this regard.

Steven
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Old 10th July 2013, 08:21 PM   #3967
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Originally Posted by Bob Cordell View Post
Not in my book, nor Self's :-).

Remember, you will not normally find a TIS in a no-feedback amplifier.

Cheers,
Bob
Actually, even D. Self acknowledges that it is, in fact, a TIS in his book, although he mistakenly called it a TAS in his fifth edition.

And, no, so-called no-feedback amplifiers are not the subject of this debate. You still haven't read Solomon I take it.
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Old 10th July 2013, 08:23 PM   #3968
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Quote:
Originally Posted by michaelkiwanuka View Post
Therefore, degenarating the TIS does not reduce the loop gain of the amplifier.
Not actualy true , this is only an appearance...
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Old 10th July 2013, 08:24 PM   #3969
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Originally Posted by michaelkiwanuka View Post
Degenerating the input stage DOES reduce forward path gain and, therefore, the amount of loop gain you can apply.
This is a good example to show either statements hold a truth:

If you have an IPS that is too fast for the VAS you have ringing on square waves. This excessive speed is of no use and just upsets the next stage more. You can increase the size of the IPS degeneration resistors to make the stage slower. Just don't make it slower than the VAS, there will be a sweetspot where you retain your speed without ringing on a square. Here you have linearized the IPS more at no cost since you trade excessive gain at the IPS for linearity and "speed matching" with the next active device stage.

When you'd keep increasing the degens at this point, it then affects overall gain/speed.
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Last edited by MagicBox; 10th July 2013 at 08:26 PM.
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Old 10th July 2013, 08:25 PM   #3970
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Over here we call it "color"
Yes; you took a perfectly serviceable language and butchered it.
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