Discrete, long life to them.... death for integrated circuits in audio! - diyAudio
Go Back   Home > Forums > Amplifiers > Solid State

Solid State Talk all about solid state amplification.

Please consider donating to help us continue to serve you.

Ads on/off / Custom Title / More PMs / More album space / Advanced printing & mass image saving
Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old 1st July 2010, 11:58 AM   #1
diyAudio Member
 
destroyer X's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Recife - Brasil Northeast
Default Discrete, long life to them.... death for integrated circuits in audio!

Several friends, along these last years, comes to me asking about chips...how to make them sound better.... well..... sadly i hate them, i hate chips.... and i have to answer things about them.

Will do no more...will point this thread, where i will say what i think about them...then people will come and read...and i will be free to be repeating my beliefs and result of experiences made along several years...there are some videos posted in youtube about.....type "destroyersoueu" there, in the youtube search bar, and you will find them.

Chip is something when one internal transistor burns, you lost the entire thing.

Chip is something misterious, you have transistors inside, and capacitors, and you cannot change them or replace them and tune them.. circuit is not correctly published, not complete.

Chip has an awfull thing, the case is small, and this was made this way to reduce costs and to make them better to be installed in micro systems.

Chip sounds very good if you know the tips and tricks to use them.... the tips and tricks are:

1) do not use full power
2) do not use high power
3) do not play loud
4) do not use 4 ohms
5) accept the thing has no power and adjust your volume very low

Why i dislike them?

That small case cannot transfer heat to heatsink..so... dissipation is a problem, the case is small, the contact area is too much small... to that case, 100 watts of dissipation is a hell optimistic...i think 80 watts may be the maximum.

Well...if you have 80 watts of dissipation (maybe if you're lucky, and if the environment is a miracle and temperature is 25 degrees celsius and heatsink does the miracle to be keept in 25 degrees celsius without warm up!)... in class AB amplifier, you cannot have more than 40 or 45 watts rms.... so...they make it this way.... 45 watts or something alike..... and if you install 4 ohms speaker..them it will give you 45 watts too...ahahahahahah!...because cannot give you more, or will overheat and melt the whole damn thing.

The chip has protections, and this kills the sound...it has over voltage protection...you install over voltage and it burns!

The chip has invertion protections....try to invert and see what happens

The chip has output short circuit protection...sometimes works.

The chip has overcurrent protection... this limits the audio dinamic... if you have a fortissimo, a peak of power, will be limited..so, will sound alike a battery portable radio from the seventies.

The chip has over voltage (output) protection...this clips the audio signal.

Well...cannot be perfect in sonics...it is not possible to be perfect this way.

If you can remove protection, them will burn...if you can do it will burn....it seems you cannot.

So.... if you can accept it was made, to operate around 5 to 10 watts to give you, unders this circunstances ,under this condition, a headroom to face some peaks..then they are fine, so good, and even better than a very good discrete.

But, will never give all that treble...and this because the distance inside the chip...the metal silicon block, are too small..so...output can be picked to input...to avoid this, the amplifier is heavily neutralized, this kills treble harmonics and sonic quality.

Also the gain condenser, is adjusted to avoid you to have deep bass..because deep bass triggers the protection circuits....so...you can increase the NFB gain condenser, that one is in series with a resistance..then you bass will be strong and you will have protection entering in action and your dinamics will be awfull.... unless you reduce your volume demand.

So.... the solution is to increase that condenser, to obtain deep bass and adjust the amplifier to low power...this way you will have headroom and nice sonics.

Accepting low power, then chips are fine, are great, lovely and have excelent sonics...depends on you.

I want distance from them.... big distance.

regards,

Carlos
__________________
A Darlington audio amplifier, a toy for your weekend enjoyment; https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yk0qvkwsAOY, No overshot; https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CEgK4l0MH8k

Last edited by destroyer X; 1st July 2010 at 12:23 PM.
  Reply With Quote
Old 1st July 2010, 02:27 PM   #2
riktw is offline riktw  Netherlands
diyAudio Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
for the power dissipation, a normal LM3886 has a junction to case resistance of 1 C/W
add isolation + cooling paste and we got 1.5 C/W
with a fairly large heatsink of 0.5C/W we got 2 C/W
if we want to keep everything below 80 degrees C we can dissipate 80 - 30(temperature in my attic atm) = 50, 2C/W means 50/ 2 = max 25 watt.
i have to agree at this point with you.
that 1C/W is mean, you have to put a couple in parallel for lotsa power.


but my little brother of 13 can build a LM3886 amplifier and make it sound good.
thats the magic of them, IC 5 euro, transformer, 13 euro each (farnell sale), casing 21 euro each, rest of the parts around 10 euro each, used some old AMD CPU coolers.
So a 1 channel amplifier was about 50 euro's
cheap as can be, nice sound, and my little bro from 13 can make it.
for high end use, nope not my piece of cake, for a decent hifi amplifier, hell yeah
  Reply With Quote
Old 1st July 2010, 02:35 PM   #3
diyAudio Member
 
destroyer X's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Recife - Brasil Northeast
Default The idea, the intention, the reason why i have opened the thread, mainly

was not to go repeating to my friends, always, the same stuff...so..now i just point the link.

But your ideas about are interesting and was pleasant to read.

regards,

Carlos
__________________
A Darlington audio amplifier, a toy for your weekend enjoyment; https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yk0qvkwsAOY, No overshot; https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CEgK4l0MH8k
  Reply With Quote
Old 1st July 2010, 06:12 PM   #4
qusp is offline qusp  Australia
diyAudio Member
 
qusp's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: Brisbane, Australia
so you are not including class D as 'chips'? seems to me they can handle just a touch more than 25W
  Reply With Quote
Old 1st July 2010, 06:17 PM   #5
diyAudio Member
 
chatziva's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: UK
Quote:
Originally Posted by destroyer X View Post
Several friends, along these last years, comes to me asking about chips...how to make them sound better.... well..... sadly i hate them, i hate chips.... and i have to answer things about them.

Will do no more...will point this thread, where i will say what i think about them...then people will come and read...and i will be free to be repeating my beliefs and result of experiences made along several years...there are some videos posted in youtube about.....type "destroyersoueu" there, in the youtube search bar, and you will find them.

Chip is something when one internal transistor burns, you lost the entire thing.

Chip is something misterious, you have transistors inside, and capacitors, and you cannot change them or replace them and tune them.. circuit is not correctly published, not complete.

Chip has an awfull thing, the case is small, and this was made this way to reduce costs and to make them better to be installed in micro systems.

Chip sounds very good if you know the tips and tricks to use them.... the tips and tricks are:

1) do not use full power
2) do not use high power
3) do not play loud
4) do not use 4 ohms
5) accept the thing has no power and adjust your volume very low

Why i dislike them?

That small case cannot transfer heat to heatsink..so... dissipation is a problem, the case is small, the contact area is too much small... to that case, 100 watts of dissipation is a hell optimistic...i think 80 watts may be the maximum.

Well...if you have 80 watts of dissipation (maybe if you're lucky, and if the environment is a miracle and temperature is 25 degrees celsius and heatsink does the miracle to be keept in 25 degrees celsius without warm up!)... in class AB amplifier, you cannot have more than 40 or 45 watts rms.... so...they make it this way.... 45 watts or something alike..... and if you install 4 ohms speaker..them it will give you 45 watts too...ahahahahahah!...because cannot give you more, or will overheat and melt the whole damn thing.

The chip has protections, and this kills the sound...it has over voltage protection...you install over voltage and it burns!

The chip has invertion protections....try to invert and see what happens

The chip has output short circuit protection...sometimes works.

The chip has overcurrent protection... this limits the audio dinamic... if you have a fortissimo, a peak of power, will be limited..so, will sound alike a battery portable radio from the seventies.

The chip has over voltage (output) protection...this clips the audio signal.

Well...cannot be perfect in sonics...it is not possible to be perfect this way.

If you can remove protection, them will burn...if you can do it will burn....it seems you cannot.

So.... if you can accept it was made, to operate around 5 to 10 watts to give you, unders this circunstances ,under this condition, a headroom to face some peaks..then they are fine, so good, and even better than a very good discrete.

But, will never give all that treble...and this because the distance inside the chip...the metal silicon block, are too small..so...output can be picked to input...to avoid this, the amplifier is heavily neutralized, this kills treble harmonics and sonic quality.

Also the gain condenser, is adjusted to avoid you to have deep bass..because deep bass triggers the protection circuits....so...you can increase the NFB gain condenser, that one is in series with a resistance..then you bass will be strong and you will have protection entering in action and your dinamics will be awfull.... unless you reduce your volume demand.

So.... the solution is to increase that condenser, to obtain deep bass and adjust the amplifier to low power...this way you will have headroom and nice sonics.

Accepting low power, then chips are fine, are great, lovely and have excelent sonics...depends on you.

I want distance from them.... big distance.

regards,

Carlos
So.... you don't like chips then?
__________________
"I don't remember ever fighting Godzilla, but that's so what I would've done"
  Reply With Quote
Old 1st July 2010, 07:54 PM   #6
diyAudio Member
 
bogdan_borko's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: serbia, zajecar
Quote:
Originally Posted by chatziva View Post
So.... you don't like chips then?
nice avatar...
  Reply With Quote
Old 1st July 2010, 08:47 PM   #7
diyAudio Member
 
nigelwright7557's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Carlisle, England
Quote:
Originally Posted by qusp View Post
so you are not including class D as 'chips'? seems to me they can handle just a touch more than 25W
Class D is a minefield for the uninitiated.
His 13 year old brother would never manage it.
  Reply With Quote
Old 1st July 2010, 09:08 PM   #8
jaycee is offline jaycee  United Kingdom
diyAudio Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: Norwich, UK
They have their place. They're good for beginners, and for compact cases. My LM3886 based chip amp sounds every bit as good as my Rotel RA-930AX does

Agreed though, for the best performance, discrete is superior naturally.
  Reply With Quote
Old 1st July 2010, 09:28 PM   #9
diyAudio Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Wirral UK
I bet that chip amps have brought more people to this hobby than any thing else. I started there for one.

John
  Reply With Quote
Old 1st July 2010, 09:34 PM   #10
wg_ski is offline wg_ski  United States
diyAudio Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Yeah... I've moved past the LM386 (no typo).
  Reply With Quote

Reply


Hide this!Advertise here!
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
About discrete I/V stage circuits for a TDA1541A dac gaetan8888 Digital Line Level 5 11th December 2010 07:28 PM
Is there life after (laser) death for great vintage CD players? cdwitmer Digital Source 8 24th January 2010 01:42 PM
best long life for my tube jeapel Tubes / Valves 2 4th May 2005 10:22 PM
Discrete protection circuits metal Solid State 6 24th February 2004 02:05 PM


New To Site? Need Help?

All times are GMT. The time now is 01:48 AM.


vBulletin Optimisation provided by vB Optimise (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2014 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.
Copyright 1999-2014 diyAudio

Content Relevant URLs by vBSEO 3.3.2