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Old 21st April 2010, 07:21 AM   #11
BV is online now BV  Slovakia
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BC818-40 (Vce =25V) exposed to 200V !!! voltage swing in very strange conected VAS, no current limit in VAS ,what will happen, if V/A limiter is active (but it is with attached schematic with diodes 1N4148 impossible) ???.. Drivers loaded with CCS ,attempt to make class A drivers, no real advantage with class B (AB) outpout..
Yes, it is really Troyan horse, potentialy very dangerous..It is only drawing, not real, working amplifier.
Carlos, be so kind and post e.g. snapshot from osciloscope screen showing limitation Have you any working prototype with posted schematic and components?.
Theories are here needed to transform ideas to working circuit.

Last edited by BV; 21st April 2010 at 07:28 AM.
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Old 21st April 2010, 08:26 AM   #12
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Default To my dear DIY friends..here you have some V/I limiters

All them from Electronic books we can have and read... Slone, Self, Ian R. Sinclair, Hood, Duncan, Brice, Singmin Davis,Patronis, Watkinson, Steven T. Karris editions,... and some other valuable help we can have..also in our forum we have special designers to help us to learn more.

Here you will see, something very important, the Waveform Pathology..the Fokker, the Troyan, shows the waveform number 9... despite of they have pointed that this means a very good performance..or indicates that..the Dx Blame ST, the best one in my point of view (the best i could even listen to) have perfect square waves, almost the same comes out from the generator.... the one sounds better... the first one, in my whole life, that measured very well and sounded very well too...thanks to Doctor Douglas Self....my hard work has helped a little too..as the CCS used in the Blameless was more a problem than a solution.

You will see several diagrams, from books, showing V/I limiters variations...several options you can use, have just to adjust resistances..anything more than that...of course i can help.

Non theoricall folks, builders, people that want to learn, people that want to help are welcome..if really want to help instead to shown themselves, and these ones, usually goes direct to my mail, as they want to help me..not needing to show themselves.

carlos.eugenio1951@yahoo.com

Wanna know why i did that or did those...ask me without show me the way you would do... because this is not a question, this is an answer.... and i have not asked.

regards,

Carlos

Click the image to open in full size.
Attached Images
File Type: gif Dual slope limiter.... stabilized.gif (40.6 KB, 881 views)
File Type: gif Multislope.gif (67.9 KB, 868 views)
File Type: gif Multislope one.gif (85.0 KB, 839 views)
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Power supply; ripple, filter, noise, stability and the use of capacitance multiplier... Portuguese and English; https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sSm0ku1eIgg
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Old 21st April 2010, 08:27 AM   #13
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Default Some more limiters...i do not appreciate anyone of them

But i respect that others may like..so..you can implement them and be happy.

regards,

Carlos
Attached Images
File Type: gif Slone limiter.gif (33.4 KB, 813 views)
File Type: gif Supply rail referenced.gif (36.6 KB, 210 views)
File Type: gif Crowbar speaker protector.gif (74.2 KB, 150 views)
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Power supply; ripple, filter, noise, stability and the use of capacitance multiplier... Portuguese and English; https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sSm0ku1eIgg
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Old 21st April 2010, 01:05 PM   #14
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Hi Carlos,

If you don't mind, soon when I will arrive home from work I will suggest you some modification ideas, based on my experiences.
Sorry, only theoratical modifiations, because I haven't build this amplifier.
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Old 21st April 2010, 01:30 PM   #15
wahab is offline wahab  Algeria
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The BC818 that drive the VAS must stand the full 200V voltage.

A 2N5551 wouldn t be enough either, unless you connect its
collector to ground, but then, you ll surely have to
increase the compensation capacitor.
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Old 21st April 2010, 02:02 PM   #16
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Default Thank you dear Wahab

I have just assembled the V/I limiters.... sadly i could not test using 100 volts..all i have is 90 volts....but i have used two supplies in paralell.... DC output in parallel..... now voltage is not dropping more than 12 percent..this is fine.

I have tried the limiters and adjusted them because of Sakis and some folks that may want to give a try.

I am using 10 output pairs..drivers and almost all CCS circuits are in the main heatsink... the CCS to the differential is not in the heatsink, this one does not overheat...transistor are the ones i have..of course then can be replaced by others, smaller ones, respecting current and voltage naturally.s

Power was limited in 930 watts at 4 ohms, and this i did at the simulator, i have not courage to do that using my speakers, also my dummy load cannot hold that power....i have tried and limited, to see the limiting action to 400 watts at 8 ohms to observe the V/I limiter performance...it really do the job but compresses the dinamics..limit the peak and this i really do not appreciated..so...was tested because of Sakis and some good friends we have in this forum, but disconnected in my own home amplifier.

Was tested, sounding very good..waveforms are fine... distortion is small while using 8 ohms (0.008%) and dinamics are great (off course, with all this huge power we feel deeply impressed).

From now on..only small modifications and capacitor tuning for sonics... small modification in the drivers current may be needed..to be around 23 miliamperes... we do that listening and also inspecting waveforms... and all that checked in the simulator (Multisim 10)

Temperature compensation is working fine.... it is working war during stand by.... around 8 degrees celsius above my home temperature (29)... pushing hard the temperature goes to almost 50 degrees..means my heatsing, the big black one is not doing the job..it is a 500 watts heatsink used to a Radio Frequency transmitter that dissipates continuous 500 watts without fan blower.

I forgot to mark the resistances that must be trimpot...the ones you see in the limiters, from the limiter transistor bases to the output line... 200 ohms... they should be 500 ohms trimpot.... adjustment of limiting power output must be done using a Osciloscope and watching the limiter operation to have a symetrical operation.

regards,

Carlos
Attached Images
File Type: jpg Troyan today.jpg (326.3 KB, 374 views)
Attached Files
File Type: pdf Troyan 100V with VI limiter.pdf (74.3 KB, 299 views)
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Power supply; ripple, filter, noise, stability and the use of capacitance multiplier... Portuguese and English; https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sSm0ku1eIgg
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Old 21st April 2010, 02:03 PM   #17
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Default I may try some of them Aldotin..i cannot guarantee that

But i will read with interest.

regards,

Carlos
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Power supply; ripple, filter, noise, stability and the use of capacitance multiplier... Portuguese and English; https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sSm0ku1eIgg
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Old 21st April 2010, 02:29 PM   #18
BV is online now BV  Slovakia
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Acording schematics, simple I limiter is used, not V/I, here is no sensing of voltage acros output devices, e.g like here,
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/attac...referenced.gif.
Output current limit is about 30A with 10 output pairs and showed componet values, also with accidently shorted output.So 3 A per device and 100V acros device at the same time. It is about 3 times more, than allowed by SOAR for used devices...It will be very expensive experience.
With this (unsuitable..) I limiter it is simply impossible get full power and at the same time ensure safety with shorted output. It must be clear visible in simulation.
And what about real, complex load , when current demands (and momentary power dissipation in output devices) can be much higher?

Last edited by BV; 21st April 2010 at 02:38 PM.
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Old 21st April 2010, 04:49 PM   #19
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Dear Carlos,

Could I ask for a schematic with "part names" (R1, R2, R3, ...)? That would help us much.

Thanks!
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Old 21st April 2010, 05:10 PM   #20
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Default Here you have... any help will be welcome...as i am already creating the amplifier

The Fokker and Troyan (Fokker plus V/I limiter.. and more volts in the supply), will be delivered in July , 17th.

For a while i am listening (already built..ugly but working) and trying some minor modifications... trying different VAS and currents, tweaking some values..only small things...keeping CCS because this has a nice "appeal" to builders..they think this makes the amplifier sound good....so...let's give them what they want.

This is time to suggest things, beeing friendly, without criticise or trying to show yourselves will be welcome here if the idea is to help forum, and to help me to help forum first...to exercise the passion by second, and to serve our own pride by third.

I cannot guarantee i will do whatever you suggest, as this may be a remote control system...people push the button and uncle Charlie move.... but some ideas i may feel interesting i may try..but this is not a promess... as alike everybody i am stubborn and biased.

Part number attached...if not trying to give one on me..then i will be full kindness and attention with all of us.

Remember..alike you i am still learning... we are always learning some.

regards,

Carlos
Attached Files
File Type: pdf Trojan with part numbers.pdf (75.3 KB, 395 views)
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Power supply; ripple, filter, noise, stability and the use of capacitance multiplier... Portuguese and English; https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sSm0ku1eIgg
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