that personal comment is completely against Forum Rules.
What is your game?
I just compiled a long and helpful PM to DX and sent it, before seeing this abusive comment.
Who is going to report Dx for abuse this time?
I have just run a 10pr 1943/5200 +-80Vdc proposal through Bensen's spreadsheet.
This set up can do ~620W into 4ohm, 40degree phase angle if the Tc is 25degC.
It can almost manage 1785W into 1r0 (pure resistance test load) but it exceeds the 100ms 25degC SOA slightly.
It cannot be classed as a 4ohm capable amplifier @Tc=25degC and if a sensible Tc of 50degC (not for use in Brazil) it is right on it's guaranteed reliability limit using an 8ohm reactive load. It will drive a 2r0 resistive load to 1100W all day long with Tc=50degC. That does not make it 2ohm capable, it does not even make it 4ohm capable. This is a 330W into 8ohm amplifier if the errors are corrected.
But, the schematic is still wrong. Many of the devices used and component values recommended cannot let this amplifier work reliably nor properly.
This set up can do ~620W into 4ohm, 40degree phase angle if the Tc is 25degC.
It can almost manage 1785W into 1r0 (pure resistance test load) but it exceeds the 100ms 25degC SOA slightly.
It cannot be classed as a 4ohm capable amplifier @Tc=25degC and if a sensible Tc of 50degC (not for use in Brazil) it is right on it's guaranteed reliability limit using an 8ohm reactive load. It will drive a 2r0 resistive load to 1100W all day long with Tc=50degC. That does not make it 2ohm capable, it does not even make it 4ohm capable. This is a 330W into 8ohm amplifier if the errors are corrected.
But, the schematic is still wrong. Many of the devices used and component values recommended cannot let this amplifier work reliably nor properly.
half of the forum users should gratefull and obliged to you Andrew for pointing out wrong or mistakes they did including me
half of the forum users probably been reading any of these error pointing from u and learned something useful from it ...including me
other than the above though Carlos is absolutelly right ... still this is not my thing to judge or for Carlos to Judge ....still he is right ...
Personaly i wouldnt bother when someone is only pointing errors and especially when he is detailed and correct we all learn from this ...
If i am allowed to say my opinion i would say that this doesnt bother me but it does bother from someone that has no post in "post your solid state pictures"
That is only my personal opinion and i hope that i managed to place it without hurting somebodies feelings or brake any of forum rules ...If i did i apologize it wasnt my intention....
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------
half of the forum users probably been reading any of these error pointing from u and learned something useful from it ...including me
other than the above though Carlos is absolutelly right ... still this is not my thing to judge or for Carlos to Judge ....still he is right ...
Personaly i wouldnt bother when someone is only pointing errors and especially when he is detailed and correct we all learn from this ...
If i am allowed to say my opinion i would say that this doesnt bother me but it does bother from someone that has no post in "post your solid state pictures"
That is only my personal opinion and i hope that i managed to place it without hurting somebodies feelings or brake any of forum rules ...If i did i apologize it wasnt my intention....
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Finally,
what do Members want to see in comments?
A congratulation on showing a flawed schematic?
A pat on the back because some resistors and capacitors have been selected appropriately?
or
be careful there are a few errors that need correction?
or
it might work better if a bigger heatsink is used?
I know what kind of comment I would like to see when I am reading about a new proposal/design.
what do Members want to see in comments?
A congratulation on showing a flawed schematic?
A pat on the back because some resistors and capacitors have been selected appropriately?
or
be careful there are a few errors that need correction?
or
it might work better if a bigger heatsink is used?
I know what kind of comment I would like to see when I am reading about a new proposal/design.
of course Andrew i can explain .....
looking at an amplifier that has 56+56 volt rails and only one pair of outpouts you will jump in with your perfect calcultions and say that this is not correct ....
well there is about a few million Japanese people that will say to you that you are wrong .... you are wrong cause these amplifiers have another approach that you refuse to see as a working approach ...
for a million times i tryied to explain you that both mercedes and kia motors manufacture cars ....only have diferent concepts and aspects for their product ....
In a few words your calculations often proove wrong amplifiers that actually are workable but under specific targets that you refuse to see ..
meaning that pointing errors is fine but under which exactly prism ???? be sure there is more than one for most subjects ...
( also we tryied to lay this down with PM between us but never worked so i will keep things as is and always thing of you as a nice person and excellent procesing tool but always i have to fiilter your results under diferent prisms )
In any case i dont mean to be either rude or mean to you ...i apriciate what you do but is only limmited on how you can use it )
kind regards sakis
looking at an amplifier that has 56+56 volt rails and only one pair of outpouts you will jump in with your perfect calcultions and say that this is not correct ....
well there is about a few million Japanese people that will say to you that you are wrong .... you are wrong cause these amplifiers have another approach that you refuse to see as a working approach ...
for a million times i tryied to explain you that both mercedes and kia motors manufacture cars ....only have diferent concepts and aspects for their product ....
In a few words your calculations often proove wrong amplifiers that actually are workable but under specific targets that you refuse to see ..
meaning that pointing errors is fine but under which exactly prism ???? be sure there is more than one for most subjects ...
( also we tryied to lay this down with PM between us but never worked so i will keep things as is and always thing of you as a nice person and excellent procesing tool but always i have to fiilter your results under diferent prisms )
In any case i dont mean to be either rude or mean to you ...i apriciate what you do but is only limmited on how you can use it )
kind regards sakis
I have to thank forum management that accepted me, in the past
to post a message asking for help to find my lost nephew.
His father knew Brazilians laws are clear, marriage finishing, splitting, having separation, then sons will be living with mother...no way to change that (or almost impossible), then he stole my nephew and scaped to England.
I could find dear nephew because this forum..the message i have posted in DIYaudio reached his girl friend.... more than 20 years was passed since he was kidnapped (my point of view), he had not the knowledge that his mother, my sister, had passed away because of cancer.
The young man had Brazilian flags in his home, had Brazilian friends and was living in London.working with big Motorcicles.... we found him!
My Gratitute to this forum that tollerated a very personal message that allowed me to find my nephew.
James Mergulhão Green, is now in Brazil, with us, visiting Paraty, a hystorical town at South of Rio de Janeiro State.
Thank you all folks from this forum management and friends that gave me support, i remember all your names.
regards,
Carlos
to post a message asking for help to find my lost nephew.
His father knew Brazilians laws are clear, marriage finishing, splitting, having separation, then sons will be living with mother...no way to change that (or almost impossible), then he stole my nephew and scaped to England.
I could find dear nephew because this forum..the message i have posted in DIYaudio reached his girl friend.... more than 20 years was passed since he was kidnapped (my point of view), he had not the knowledge that his mother, my sister, had passed away because of cancer.
The young man had Brazilian flags in his home, had Brazilian friends and was living in London.working with big Motorcicles.... we found him!
My Gratitute to this forum that tollerated a very personal message that allowed me to find my nephew.
James Mergulhão Green, is now in Brazil, with us, visiting Paraty, a hystorical town at South of Rio de Janeiro State.
Thank you all folks from this forum management and friends that gave me support, i remember all your names.
regards,
Carlos
Attachments
Last edited:
choices, options, design decisions
Hi Sakis,
I thought you were referring to some particular concept that Carlos had got right that you agreed with and that I was saying it was wrong.
I agree completely that we all have different targets and different standards.
I agree that after we have set our brief and specification using those targets that the possible solutions will be different, sometimes very different from solutions based on an alternative brief and specification.
I agree that my targets and standards will be different from your's and Carlos', more probably different from 99% of other builders.
Yes, operating temperature of devices is a design decision. Operating environment varies with use and location, again a design decision on what to use for universal or personal duty.
But, please explain why a transistor with 25Vce0 that is used in a location where it is exposed to near 100Vdc plus or minus a variable AC signal, can be right?
Can it be right that we should all ignore this because the adjacent transistor is correctly specified for it's duty?
Finally, you and all other Members have the right to accept or reject anything and everything you read including my comments.
I do similar all the time. I try to sift the wheat from the chaff in everything that I read, unless I have grown accustomed to a particular author and know of his/her reliability.
Hi Sakis,
I thought you were referring to some particular concept that Carlos had got right that you agreed with and that I was saying it was wrong.
I agree completely that we all have different targets and different standards.
I agree that after we have set our brief and specification using those targets that the possible solutions will be different, sometimes very different from solutions based on an alternative brief and specification.
I agree that my targets and standards will be different from your's and Carlos', more probably different from 99% of other builders.
Yes, operating temperature of devices is a design decision. Operating environment varies with use and location, again a design decision on what to use for universal or personal duty.
But, please explain why a transistor with 25Vce0 that is used in a location where it is exposed to near 100Vdc plus or minus a variable AC signal, can be right?
Can it be right that we should all ignore this because the adjacent transistor is correctly specified for it's duty?
Finally, you and all other Members have the right to accept or reject anything and everything you read including my comments.
I do similar all the time. I try to sift the wheat from the chaff in everything that I read, unless I have grown accustomed to a particular author and know of his/her reliability.
BC818-40 was removed...was used only to simulations, to check
distortion dear Sakis.... check schematic and observe all transistors can manage to face the swing we have in the stage.
The amplifier is operating, full power and over 4 ohms loads....not suggested to operate, the way it is now, the way shown in the schematic, with 2 ohms loads.
Was told that may face, with more output transistors, if speaker impedance dropped below 4 ohms in some impedance, because passive crossover, or difficult loads.
Mr. AndrewT wants to be noticed, he knows the threads i usually open have a lot of readers... some of them come to see him nervous the way he looks to be.... he is increasing my popularity.
The amplifier is working... and against the reality there's no arguments.
I am not reading him, as i know his intentions are not cooperative... sometimes i know where his bomber airplane strikes, when people repeat (copy and paste) parts of his text.
regards,
Carlos
distortion dear Sakis.... check schematic and observe all transistors can manage to face the swing we have in the stage.
The amplifier is operating, full power and over 4 ohms loads....not suggested to operate, the way it is now, the way shown in the schematic, with 2 ohms loads.
Was told that may face, with more output transistors, if speaker impedance dropped below 4 ohms in some impedance, because passive crossover, or difficult loads.
Mr. AndrewT wants to be noticed, he knows the threads i usually open have a lot of readers... some of them come to see him nervous the way he looks to be.... he is increasing my popularity.
The amplifier is working... and against the reality there's no arguments.
I am not reading him, as i know his intentions are not cooperative... sometimes i know where his bomber airplane strikes, when people repeat (copy and paste) parts of his text.
regards,
Carlos
Last edited:
Sakis,
AndrewT clearly laid it out imho. He said:
"I have just run a 10pr 1943/5200 +-80Vdc proposal through Bensen's spreadsheet.
This set up can do ~620W into 4ohm, 40degree phase angle if the Tc is 25degC.
It can almost manage 1785W into 1r0 (pure resistance test load) but it exceeds the 100ms 25degC SOA slightly.
It cannot be classed as a 4ohm capable amplifier @Tc=25degC and if a sensible Tc of 50degC (not for use in Brazil) it is right on it's guaranteed reliability limit using an 8ohm reactive load. It will drive a 2r0 resistive load to 1100W all day long with Tc=50degC. That does not make it 2ohm capable, it does not even make it 4ohm capable. This is a 330W into 8ohm amplifier if the errors are corrected."
Isn't that clear? Knowing that real life speakers of nominal 8 ohms can go as low as 4 ohms and have 45 or even 60 degree phase angle, this amp (if the calculations in the spreadsheet are good) can do 620 W with 10 pairs, at 25degree celcius, without the 'poof'. It means that if you hook it up with only 6 pairs you stand a good chance of 'poof'. It means that if the heatsink is hotter than 25 degr Celcius you have a good chance of problems.
Isn't that valuable info?
Who can object to that? Of course it can do much more into a pure resistive load, but that is totally irrelevant - who listens to his music from a resistive load?
It is clear that Carlos does not fully underdstand (or prefers to ignore) Safe Operating Area issues (and no Carlos, this is NOT a personal attack, it is a conclusion from posts), does that mean we all should place our heads into the sand? Isn't this forum for ALL of us to get smarter while enjoying building?
jd
Last edited:
I suggest you to build something and learn facing the reality
If your spreadsheets, datasheets or whatever you use says the amplifier cannot work, or will burn, this means you need to exercise some practice.
Build things more and read a little bit less.
The amplifier is working, submited to torture...it is operating despite these criticisms.
No more answers to the ones use to say it will not work reliable... this does not makes sense when it is working.
So, one of us is loosing contact with the reality...and i think it is not me....i have the real amplifier working, you have sheets of paper.
regards,
Carlos
If your spreadsheets, datasheets or whatever you use says the amplifier cannot work, or will burn, this means you need to exercise some practice.
Build things more and read a little bit less.
The amplifier is working, submited to torture...it is operating despite these criticisms.
No more answers to the ones use to say it will not work reliable... this does not makes sense when it is working.
So, one of us is loosing contact with the reality...and i think it is not me....i have the real amplifier working, you have sheets of paper.
regards,
Carlos
It doesn't surprise me a bit that it works - Uncle Charlie isn't taking any more liberties with SOA than QSC, Crown, and everyone who copies them haven't been taking for years and years and years. Less, actually. Look at some of those designs and you wonder why they don't just blow up the very first time the bass drops. Instead, the only thing that seems to kill them is long term heating.
Why? Either the peak junction temps don't really get that high (even in the s/b limited region), or the peak junction temps can be run higher than any 200C. In either case, the semiconductor makers are sandbagging their specs on the modern devices.
Why? Either the peak junction temps don't really get that high (even in the s/b limited region), or the peak junction temps can be run higher than any 200C. In either case, the semiconductor makers are sandbagging their specs on the modern devices.
Yes, Wg-sky...working and facing torture..so, i cannot listen them
because their concerns does not confirm in real life....of course i trust more in the reality than in their thougths or datasheet.
These specifications are safe to the manufacturer...alike a smaller value published for safety reasons...alike condensers specified as 63 volts when they can face much more.
Some flexibility is needed, and the ones holds the soldering iron knows these papers are just a reference..the reality is different...and we go confirming these things almost daily using parts and building amplifiers.
If i have or had an amplifier burned, then i would listen them and give them more attention..will not do that anymore, as is the opposite i am watching in my workbench.
I have reduce the voltage because i remembered i cannot be sure the amplifier can really face 100 volts because my supply was having voltage drops....so i have reduced because of that.
regards,
Carlos
because their concerns does not confirm in real life....of course i trust more in the reality than in their thougths or datasheet.
These specifications are safe to the manufacturer...alike a smaller value published for safety reasons...alike condensers specified as 63 volts when they can face much more.
Some flexibility is needed, and the ones holds the soldering iron knows these papers are just a reference..the reality is different...and we go confirming these things almost daily using parts and building amplifiers.
If i have or had an amplifier burned, then i would listen them and give them more attention..will not do that anymore, as is the opposite i am watching in my workbench.
I have reduce the voltage because i remembered i cannot be sure the amplifier can really face 100 volts because my supply was having voltage drops....so i have reduced because of that.
regards,
Carlos
If in technical threads any kind of circuit remarks are not wished to be taken into account or not, its one thing. But remarks from any party about personality, sincerity, popularity etc. for another party, enter the realm of offense and fighting. We are not happy to cripple threads from valuable technical views for the members by having to delete whole posts mixed with tech and personal remarks when the going gets heavy. Don't make us to. We also can't be reviewing the tech part and who's wrong or right, its not for the moderation, its for the learned members to judge. If some of you think you don't get along well, post strictly technically. Penalties and clean up are not far away if this escalates further. Using popularity or technical prowess as an excuse so to cross the line against one another, will not be tolerated for long. Keep it under control.
DX,
in post161 you asked if I could help.
I saw that request and sent you a PM showing what I could do to help you with your VI limiter.
Then in post 181, I confirm to you that I have sent a PM.
After sending that PM and confirming it to ypu, I see in post 170 that you do not believe I want to help.
Then today you comment in post190.
What do you want?
Help? Advice? Training in using Benson's spreadsheet?
in post161 you asked if I could help.
I saw that request and sent you a PM showing what I could do to help you with your VI limiter.
Then in post 181, I confirm to you that I have sent a PM.
After sending that PM and confirming it to ypu, I see in post 170 that you do not believe I want to help.
Then today you comment in post190.
What do you want?
Help? Advice? Training in using Benson's spreadsheet?
Yes, i have asked your cooperation, but please, post it in the forum
to everybody be able to read.... also everybody will see you helping forum folks offering solutions... i have readed some messages from you in the past, and these PM were not that kind to be readed, i prefer you to post in a public way.
This interests to everybody.
I am really needing help with V/I limiters, there are so many options and i do not know exactly the one performs the best, i have not build them, so, i do not know the performance..i have not tested.
So, i have two main options, or to ask people some help, and i did, or to assemble myself several options, but this takes time and is not nice to do, as i am not someone that appreciates V/I limiters.... my intention is to find a short cut, to go directly to the ones is considered the best and tested by someone that feel interest in help.
But my interest has some demand.... must be someone that has built, otherwise is a book copy and the one will not know, exactly and with 100 percent sure, how the circuit will work...in this case i will be trying things..when i want to go straigth to the solution.....if the one has not build, then the man will give me a problem and not the solution.
regards,
Carlos
to everybody be able to read.... also everybody will see you helping forum folks offering solutions... i have readed some messages from you in the past, and these PM were not that kind to be readed, i prefer you to post in a public way.
This interests to everybody.
I am really needing help with V/I limiters, there are so many options and i do not know exactly the one performs the best, i have not build them, so, i do not know the performance..i have not tested.
So, i have two main options, or to ask people some help, and i did, or to assemble myself several options, but this takes time and is not nice to do, as i am not someone that appreciates V/I limiters.... my intention is to find a short cut, to go directly to the ones is considered the best and tested by someone that feel interest in help.
But my interest has some demand.... must be someone that has built, otherwise is a book copy and the one will not know, exactly and with 100 percent sure, how the circuit will work...in this case i will be trying things..when i want to go straigth to the solution.....if the one has not build, then the man will give me a problem and not the solution.
regards,
Carlos
Last edited:
- Status
- Not open for further replies.