Has anyone here had a look at the design of Emotiva brand of preamps, pwr.amps, and multichannel stuff?
However, internet photos of the internals looks nice, but I'll step aside for others to say.
Published specs per dollars per watt seem unusually good for the PERHAPS uninlightened purchaser.
However, internet photos of the internals looks nice, but I'll step aside for others to say.
Published specs per dollars per watt seem unusually good for the PERHAPS uninlightened purchaser.
I remember reading a caption somewhere on their website that they used triple EF output stages and maybe dual diff input stages, with MJL21193/94 outputs. That could have just been the XPA amps. The transformer is undersized for the XPA5. It's kind of hard to get 5x300W/4R out of a 1200VA transformer 
... assuming teh spec sheet is right.
... assuming teh spec sheet is right.Hi stormrider:
As I had mentioned in a previous post:
I am looking to buy a integrated SS amp about 1,000. dollars.
At first, I began to look at Audiogon, although there are probably many good used ones, I can't evaluate these units as many of the forum members here can.
Plus, being used, most are not auditionable for return.
As used, I had asked (here) about life expectancy under normal conditions versus years of service, but that might be difficult to assertain without seeing first hand.
I do realize that if a well designed unit were considered and its condition were good, the advantage would be a good price.
So I thought, there are a lot of builders here, as well, small companies that
sell completed units with perhaps a better design over-all.
I read through all of the Aspen AKSA FAQ and being a novice with regard to design, that designer seems to know alot, although some may debate his theories. He doesn't offer inexpensive pre-builts as far as I know.
I can not try building at this time.
One unit that interests me is up for sale at Audiogon. it is about 4 to 5 years old, low useage:
BV Audio A300se integrated about 700 dollars.
Anyway, I would like some recommendations about companies advertized here and what there stong points are.
Also, I took a look at Motiva, its new and warranted, but seems to offer a lot for price. It could be that chineeses made units (some) might be very good.
As I had mentioned in a previous post:
I am looking to buy a integrated SS amp about 1,000. dollars.
At first, I began to look at Audiogon, although there are probably many good used ones, I can't evaluate these units as many of the forum members here can.
Plus, being used, most are not auditionable for return.
As used, I had asked (here) about life expectancy under normal conditions versus years of service, but that might be difficult to assertain without seeing first hand.
I do realize that if a well designed unit were considered and its condition were good, the advantage would be a good price.
So I thought, there are a lot of builders here, as well, small companies that
sell completed units with perhaps a better design over-all.
I read through all of the Aspen AKSA FAQ and being a novice with regard to design, that designer seems to know alot, although some may debate his theories. He doesn't offer inexpensive pre-builts as far as I know.
I can not try building at this time.
One unit that interests me is up for sale at Audiogon. it is about 4 to 5 years old, low useage:
BV Audio A300se integrated about 700 dollars.
Anyway, I would like some recommendations about companies advertized here and what there stong points are.
Also, I took a look at Motiva, its new and warranted, but seems to offer a lot for price. It could be that chineeses made units (some) might be very good.
You appear to be getting a lot for your money with the Emotiva stuff.
Even if you weren't entirely happy with the final product itself, you've still got a lot of amplifier to play around with.
For example the XPA-2. You're getting a nice looking chassis, two large heatsinks in an easy to use shape. A large transformer and a decent amount of smoothing caps. A lot of output transistors and all the input and output connectors.
Those alone, if purchased individually probably wouldn't be too far away in price to the cost of the amplifier.
All of those parts could easily be re-used in another design, provided you were after a similar kind of product. IE another class AB amp of similar output power.
Even if you weren't entirely happy with the final product itself, you've still got a lot of amplifier to play around with.
For example the XPA-2. You're getting a nice looking chassis, two large heatsinks in an easy to use shape. A large transformer and a decent amount of smoothing caps. A lot of output transistors and all the input and output connectors.
Those alone, if purchased individually probably wouldn't be too far away in price to the cost of the amplifier.
All of those parts could easily be re-used in another design, provided you were after a similar kind of product. IE another class AB amp of similar output power.
Linls to Reviews
Here are links to a couple of reviews
Emotiva XPA-1 Monoblock Power Amplifier Secrets of Home Theater and High Fidelity
Emotiva XPA-2 Stereo Power Amplifier Secrets of Home Theater and High Fidelity
Doug
Here are links to a couple of reviews
Emotiva XPA-1 Monoblock Power Amplifier Secrets of Home Theater and High Fidelity
Emotiva XPA-2 Stereo Power Amplifier Secrets of Home Theater and High Fidelity
Doug
I remember reading a caption somewhere on their website that they used triple EF output stages and maybe dual diff input stages, with MJL21193/94 outputs. That could have just been the XPA amps. The transformer is undersized for the XPA5. It's kind of hard to get 5x300W/4R out of a 1200VA transformer
Dont forget that the 300watts are peak and the transformer VA is RMS.
This means the transformer will allow 1800VA peak through it.
Of course a bit will be lost in heat in the heatsink.
No. 300W is the quoted RMS power into 4 ohms. Which means that it should be capable of putting out 300W x5 channels into 4 ohm loads for a specified length of time. This isn't possible with a 1200VA transformer except for extremely short lengths of time, tiny bursts.
rob1966:
Apart from the sonic quality, which I understand that if I don't like it, I return it.
However, my interest is in component choice/quality/layout as it applies to long-term stability?
Do you have first hand experience with the units?
Are you knowledgeable enough to be able to judge the build? I submit this respectfully.
A lot depends on how the amps are made.
If they are hand built then it relies on the individual building it and the care they take. One bad or missed joint and the amp is unreliable.
If they are solder waved then it relies on inspection (if any) afterwards and testing.
I have seen missed joints get out in companies i have worked for after fully passing all the tests only to fail later.
Also a lot depends on the components they are using.
Companies are often tempted to buy the cheapest components to maximise profits. This alos include skimping on transformer, heatsinks and fans using what is barely passable.
I own the UPA-2 and my friend owns the XPA-5, I have had no problems at all, their systems are designed and protected very well. the build quality is solid, these are not cheaped out economy amps. I personal like the the style of their stuff, some people don't care for it but what are you going to do
The layout is real simple, streamline "less is more". you get true independent channels. The power is their, I know some people like to get analytical about power ratings and charts, but you will have to just listen to it and decide for yourself.
This is from Emo’s site: top quality components
Emotiva products use the best of the best when it comes to construction materials and components.
With internal components like:
- Multi layer FR4 glass epoxy PC boards
- Cirrus Semiconductor and Motorola Symphony™ DSP engines
- Professional grade 24 bit A/D and D/A converters
- Low noise power toroids
- Low ESR 105°C capacitor banks
- 2 ounce copper power traces in our amplifiers
- Optically isolated control paths
- Internal trigger relays for connected devices, connections including HDMI and high bandwidth 100+MHz component video switching
- Multiple audio input and output connections (including RCA analog, RCA digital, TosLink optical digital, and even balanced XLR), and many other high end components and design techniques typically reserved for home entertainment products costing 3-5 times the price of Emotiva products.
this is some component they run in their products.
I am driving my front mains (PSB T6’s) with no problems. The amp runs cool to worm at 6ohm.
I don't own any of their gear but there are a lot of Emotiva fans over at HTGuide Forum - Mission Possible DIY. I'm on the waiting list for a UMC-1 processor.
The "undersized" transformer doesn't meet the requirement for continuous full power operation. Even assuming 100% efficiency the amp is trying to pull 1500W from a 1200 VA (same as Watts if there is no phase shift) transformer. That means if you run the amp at 5 x 300 WRMS continuously the transformer will overheat and may fail.
What does this mean in practical terms? Unless you are using it in a nightclub, nothing. Chances are your listening levels are under 5 watts RMS per channel on the main, center and surrounds. You may use more average power for subwoofer duty, but chances are you still wouldn't use max power continuously.
A side benefit of an "undersized" transformer is that it provides a measure of protection to the amp - if the amp tries to draw too much power the rail voltage drops due to transformer internal heating. Not a substitute for protection circuits but it helps. I have a 100W Fender guitar amp that uses a 100VA transformer, undoubtedly for this reason.
HTH
The "undersized" transformer doesn't meet the requirement for continuous full power operation. Even assuming 100% efficiency the amp is trying to pull 1500W from a 1200 VA (same as Watts if there is no phase shift) transformer. That means if you run the amp at 5 x 300 WRMS continuously the transformer will overheat and may fail.
What does this mean in practical terms? Unless you are using it in a nightclub, nothing. Chances are your listening levels are under 5 watts RMS per channel on the main, center and surrounds. You may use more average power for subwoofer duty, but chances are you still wouldn't use max power continuously.
A side benefit of an "undersized" transformer is that it provides a measure of protection to the amp - if the amp tries to draw too much power the rail voltage drops due to transformer internal heating. Not a substitute for protection circuits but it helps. I have a 100W Fender guitar amp that uses a 100VA transformer, undoubtedly for this reason.
HTH
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1500W rated (should be about 2250W AC draw with sine wave all channels driven) on a 1200VA trafo isn't doing too bad these days. For a 1500W "pro" amp, you're lucky if they put in a 600 or 750. A 1200VA can easily put out 2400W for half an hour, and upwards of 6000W for two or three minutes at at time.
Emotiva vs. Adcom GFA 555, with Emoticons
Hi to all,
I've owned a 200 wpc Adcom GFA555 for about 30 or so years, and my friend recently bought an Emotiva 5 channel Amp.
I brought over my GFA 555, and would say that at all volumes in two channels the GFA 555 sounded better to me than the 5 channel Emotiva, which was rated at approximately the same wattage. The 5-channel Emotiva, to my ears, sounded a little thin. Nontheless, it was an excellent amp, and I would say it sounded better than, e.g. my old Apt One amp. But it played a bit louder than the Adcom too, so if you want LOUD, you would get more decibels of playback. It just sounded grainier to me than the Adcom, even though my ancient Adcom frankly sounds a bit grainy to me when it is cranked up too. If you listen to Mettalica like my friend, this may not bother you as it was hard to hear "better" to my ears on distorted electric guitars and compressed recordings (which would make the Emo a better choice if you listen to a lot of heavy metal or rock, maybe, as it gets a bit louder and will also run three more channels). But with my SACD of Miles Davis recorded in 1958,
I heard differences as noted above.
However, my friend then bought a large 2-channel Emotiva. I'm not sure of the model number, but it is still the "big" two channel for sale presently. It has 34 volts gain (gasp). And I am not so sure it isn't even more powerful than that, according to a review I read online. So this is minimally about six decibels more gain than the Adcom, indicating a lot more power, regardless of how rated. That two-channel Emotiva seemed to be far more powerful, and at normal volumes sounded to me to be as "good" as the Adcom overall. It equalled the Adcom at higher volumes, but played far louder. I really like that amp, and would consider buying either amp for its intended purpose: i.e., I'd buy the 5 channel to run surrounds, and the two channel for my front pair. You might not need the gain, but it wouldn't hurt to have it if you wanted to hear really loud noises, like recordings of jet airplanes or chainsaws, or Metallica, I don't know.
As to your price to value comparison, I paid approximately $600 in 1986 for the GFA 555 Adcom. My friend (through wheeling and dealing and careful shopping) paid about $600 each for both of his Emotivas, both with full manufacturer warranties but not necessarily NIB. I attribute that to foreign manufacture, and the improvements that have come over the years with better transistors, and also computer modeling which was not possible. It may be also that, like OPPO they are buying modules from Chinese manufacturers that can then be "re-used" in other models.
If you have questions about Emotiva, you can email Lonnie, who is the "brains" behind the designs and happens to be a hobbyist who began building audio equipment. He would probably enjoy answering any questions about his design according to my friend with the Emotivas, who met Lonnie at Emofest last year. (Emofest = Annual homecoming and open house for Emotiva owners and fans.) It's kind of a bizarre business model, with the buyers being cult-like, kind of like Apple P.C. users (or Saturn owners in the 1990s). Great fun, and good barbeque and free beer according to my friend, who took his (saintlike and patient) family. (I guess they really love him.)
I'd definitely recommend the big two channel amp as against anything at the same price, and the 5 channel amp for surround use. According to "The Inflation Calculator": What cost $600 in 1986 would cost $1158.46 in 2009. And if you can find a comparable $1,200 amp that sounds better at high volumes, I'd be suprised. It's a pretty nice amp at $600 in today's dollars. Check out their website, and you can also buy a used emotiva through their forum. Pretty good gear at unbelievably low prices in my estimation. Kind of like those all you can eat crab leg buffets at the Chinese restaurants. Hard to figure out how they do it.
According to Lonnie, that two channel amp runs 5 watts class a, then runs in class AB beyond that, if that type of design information interests you. (My buddy asked Lonnie at Emofest, as we were in the middle of a big argument about the "sound" of class a vs. AB, etc.)
If you are into home theater (I am not, but you might) they just rolled out a preamp-processor that costs for about $1000 what I have seen priced at $6000. Too rich for my blood, but if you were about to buy a pre/pro, you might want to look into it as it appears to be a similarly bizarrely low-priced piece of gear, kind of like an OPPO or the other emotiva.
In case you are interested, my friend thinks that their loudspeakers aren't on the same level of quality as their electronics.
Disclaimer: my ears are even older than my Adcom, and are not made of gold. On the other hand, I have been listening to/playing/running PA systems for music for many years, so I didn't just fall out of the turnip truck, either. No offense to any turnips, turnip lovers, Adcom lovers, or Emotiva or Apt lovers, btw.
Regards,
Jonathan Smith
Hi to all,
I've owned a 200 wpc Adcom GFA555 for about 30 or so years, and my friend recently bought an Emotiva 5 channel Amp.
I brought over my GFA 555, and would say that at all volumes in two channels the GFA 555 sounded better to me than the 5 channel Emotiva, which was rated at approximately the same wattage. The 5-channel Emotiva, to my ears, sounded a little thin. Nontheless, it was an excellent amp, and I would say it sounded better than, e.g. my old Apt One amp. But it played a bit louder than the Adcom too, so if you want LOUD, you would get more decibels of playback. It just sounded grainier to me than the Adcom, even though my ancient Adcom frankly sounds a bit grainy to me when it is cranked up too. If you listen to Mettalica like my friend, this may not bother you as it was hard to hear "better" to my ears on distorted electric guitars and compressed recordings (which would make the Emo a better choice if you listen to a lot of heavy metal or rock, maybe, as it gets a bit louder and will also run three more channels). But with my SACD of Miles Davis recorded in 1958,
I heard differences as noted above.However, my friend then bought a large 2-channel Emotiva. I'm not sure of the model number, but it is still the "big" two channel for sale presently. It has 34 volts gain (gasp). And I am not so sure it isn't even more powerful than that, according to a review I read online. So this is minimally about six decibels more gain than the Adcom, indicating a lot more power, regardless of how rated. That two-channel Emotiva seemed to be far more powerful, and at normal volumes sounded to me to be as "good" as the Adcom overall. It equalled the Adcom at higher volumes, but played far louder. I really like that amp, and would consider buying either amp for its intended purpose: i.e., I'd buy the 5 channel to run surrounds, and the two channel for my front pair. You might not need the gain, but it wouldn't hurt to have it if you wanted to hear really loud noises, like recordings of jet airplanes or chainsaws, or Metallica, I don't know.
As to your price to value comparison, I paid approximately $600 in 1986 for the GFA 555 Adcom. My friend (through wheeling and dealing and careful shopping) paid about $600 each for both of his Emotivas, both with full manufacturer warranties but not necessarily NIB. I attribute that to foreign manufacture, and the improvements that have come over the years with better transistors, and also computer modeling which was not possible. It may be also that, like OPPO they are buying modules from Chinese manufacturers that can then be "re-used" in other models.
If you have questions about Emotiva, you can email Lonnie, who is the "brains" behind the designs and happens to be a hobbyist who began building audio equipment. He would probably enjoy answering any questions about his design according to my friend with the Emotivas, who met Lonnie at Emofest last year. (Emofest = Annual homecoming and open house for Emotiva owners and fans.) It's kind of a bizarre business model, with the buyers being cult-like, kind of like Apple P.C. users (or Saturn owners in the 1990s). Great fun, and good barbeque and free beer according to my friend, who took his (saintlike and patient) family. (I guess they really love him.)
I'd definitely recommend the big two channel amp as against anything at the same price, and the 5 channel amp for surround use. According to "The Inflation Calculator": What cost $600 in 1986 would cost $1158.46 in 2009. And if you can find a comparable $1,200 amp that sounds better at high volumes, I'd be suprised. It's a pretty nice amp at $600 in today's dollars. Check out their website, and you can also buy a used emotiva through their forum. Pretty good gear at unbelievably low prices in my estimation. Kind of like those all you can eat crab leg buffets at the Chinese restaurants. Hard to figure out how they do it.
According to Lonnie, that two channel amp runs 5 watts class a, then runs in class AB beyond that, if that type of design information interests you. (My buddy asked Lonnie at Emofest, as we were in the middle of a big argument about the "sound" of class a vs. AB, etc.)
If you are into home theater (I am not, but you might) they just rolled out a preamp-processor that costs for about $1000 what I have seen priced at $6000. Too rich for my blood, but if you were about to buy a pre/pro, you might want to look into it as it appears to be a similarly bizarrely low-priced piece of gear, kind of like an OPPO or the other emotiva.
In case you are interested, my friend thinks that their loudspeakers aren't on the same level of quality as their electronics.
Disclaimer: my ears are even older than my Adcom, and are not made of gold. On the other hand, I have been listening to/playing/running PA systems for music for many years, so I didn't just fall out of the turnip truck, either. No offense to any turnips, turnip lovers, Adcom lovers, or Emotiva or Apt lovers, btw.
Regards,
Jonathan Smith
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