on the other hand my dear Uncle Charly
here is a chalenge to something easy that could unite various opinions and various approach from diferent respected forum members ....
you have perfect designs like the DX that provide quality but no protection and no power
then you have the dhr series with cousins still offer more power still offer quality and no protection
you have dr Boras designs that are very nice designs they offer power they offer quality but no protection and not so many bulited arround here to support many details and as dr Bora stated ..."he doesnt design idiot proof amplifiers "
the next power full design will be may be QUASI's designs overdated but working design lots of power but still no protection ....
then you have rods P68 loads of power ....no protection and class AB+B design which is lower quality
if you look at it from any aspect the only workable design is the GREEK DIRTY HARRY BY FOTIOS but still this is might be the best powerfull amplifier in its class of course but not cost effective
then you have the Andrew T approach which is in a few words : overdesign everything to be on the safe side and built amplifiers only based on soar plots of output transitors very nice i think but still not cost effective ....
so here is the chalenge Uncle Charly proper made amplifier in the class of 250W at 8 ohms / simply made offering quality/stability /with idiot proof protection/and cost effective
cost effective = is as much it can be in class AB since we will never manage to produce anything that is DSP related
finally the Lynx coyld be a good approach but still 150w is too liltle power
you see .... my all very good friends i have no design skills (eventhough for this year i have repaired or updated arround 180 amps in my shop ..... ) i am one of the many that construct your amplifiers ...i have constructed from ROD , from Quasi , from Uncle Charly ,From dr Bora, the lynx and a few others that i dont remember ... so anyway you slice it my opinion counts ha ha ha
thanks every one !!!
here is a chalenge to something easy that could unite various opinions and various approach from diferent respected forum members ....
you have perfect designs like the DX that provide quality but no protection and no power
then you have the dhr series with cousins still offer more power still offer quality and no protection
you have dr Boras designs that are very nice designs they offer power they offer quality but no protection and not so many bulited arround here to support many details and as dr Bora stated ..."he doesnt design idiot proof amplifiers "
the next power full design will be may be QUASI's designs overdated but working design lots of power but still no protection ....
then you have rods P68 loads of power ....no protection and class AB+B design which is lower quality
if you look at it from any aspect the only workable design is the GREEK DIRTY HARRY BY FOTIOS but still this is might be the best powerfull amplifier in its class of course but not cost effective
then you have the Andrew T approach which is in a few words : overdesign everything to be on the safe side and built amplifiers only based on soar plots of output transitors very nice i think but still not cost effective ....
so here is the chalenge Uncle Charly proper made amplifier in the class of 250W at 8 ohms / simply made offering quality/stability /with idiot proof protection/and cost effective
cost effective = is as much it can be in class AB since we will never manage to produce anything that is DSP related
finally the Lynx coyld be a good approach but still 150w is too liltle power
you see .... my all very good friends i have no design skills (eventhough for this year i have repaired or updated arround 180 amps in my shop ..... ) i am one of the many that construct your amplifiers ...i have constructed from ROD , from Quasi , from Uncle Charly ,From dr Bora, the lynx and a few others that i dont remember ... so anyway you slice it my opinion counts ha ha ha
thanks every one !!!
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Single differential using a current mirror have a huge
advantage in low frequency open loop gain , that will
allow high negative feedback ratios.
Implementing current mirrors in symetrical differentials
is not an easy task since the two Vas are not current limited as
in a simple differential where the Vas current is limited either by
bootstrap resistors or a current source.
This require a better global design, as there will be less
negative feedback to correct for the lacks in the chain
from input to output..
In short, single differential amps with current mirrors
are way more tolerant of design issues that are not
extremely critical , thus their adoption in mass produced
amplifiers, using negative feedback as a global cure..
advantage in low frequency open loop gain , that will
allow high negative feedback ratios.
Implementing current mirrors in symetrical differentials
is not an easy task since the two Vas are not current limited as
in a simple differential where the Vas current is limited either by
bootstrap resistors or a current source.
This require a better global design, as there will be less
negative feedback to correct for the lacks in the chain
from input to output..
In short, single differential amps with current mirrors
are way more tolerant of design issues that are not
extremely critical , thus their adoption in mass produced
amplifiers, using negative feedback as a global cure..
Member
Joined 2009
Paid Member
Carlos,
Perhaps I should not cause your head to grow too large, but you deserve some additional credit not given in this thread.
Not only have you built a lot of amplifiers, but this is a DIY forum and your posts have inspired people to build things. I have to admit that it was one of your threads that pulled me into this forum and eventually into this hobby in the first place. In my opinion, you avoid taking things too seriously (most of the time) and you are one of the few people here who have an ability to 'keep themselves honest' and not get stuck doing the wrong things for too long if they aren't yielding good results. You are not shy to borrow ideas from others and use them to have fun.
I believe that the (commercial) future is going to involve more advanced technologies and ideas, providing lots of opportunities for bright young people like Keantoken and Eva etc. But for DIY pleasures there's much to be said for a nice great sounding amplifier project that can still be constructed using the unaided eye and tested without a NASA laboratory.
p.s. I don't see a strong reason why a symmetrical amplifiers shouldn't sound every bit as good as non-symmetrical (even accounting for harmonics), but then again, I haven't built one yet so I will endeavour to try it, perhaps Class A for simplicity.
Perhaps I should not cause your head to grow too large, but you deserve some additional credit not given in this thread.
Not only have you built a lot of amplifiers, but this is a DIY forum and your posts have inspired people to build things. I have to admit that it was one of your threads that pulled me into this forum and eventually into this hobby in the first place. In my opinion, you avoid taking things too seriously (most of the time) and you are one of the few people here who have an ability to 'keep themselves honest' and not get stuck doing the wrong things for too long if they aren't yielding good results. You are not shy to borrow ideas from others and use them to have fun.
I believe that the (commercial) future is going to involve more advanced technologies and ideas, providing lots of opportunities for bright young people like Keantoken and Eva etc. But for DIY pleasures there's much to be said for a nice great sounding amplifier project that can still be constructed using the unaided eye and tested without a NASA laboratory.
p.s. I don't see a strong reason why a symmetrical amplifiers shouldn't sound every bit as good as non-symmetrical (even accounting for harmonics), but then again, I haven't built one yet so I will endeavour to try it, perhaps Class A for simplicity.
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Hello Bigun and Carlos
I agree with you Bigun, for me Carlos was one of the first guy who reply to my first question wen, few years ago, I start in the forum and post my first question, after that first question I've learn a lot by reading and following for months all the Dx thread.
Thank Carlos for the times you give to the forum.
Bye
Gaetan
I would concur with wahab, I have had both blameless and dual differential complimetary designs, both were good to listen too, but the dual differential just stood the test of time for me anyway. As wahab states it is a little more difficult to get working the way you want it to, but the end results are stunning. I am using dual differencial complimentary topology in all three of my amplifiers driving a three way transmission line and the results are absolutely awesome. Also sold a couple but not from wanting to.
Nice point of view dear Bigun..also dear Sakis, my friend Gaetan
Also Niko Ras and Wahab...interesting point of view.. i am read them all, with interest.
heheheh...i am producing a speaker protection (copy from Slone) dear Sakis..this one let the speaker safe and do not harm sonics.
I have not people complaining about my amplifiers burning... so, i do not think it is an emergency to include protections on them.
I had several burns, but torture tests..full power, clipping square wave, high frequencies, crazy loads using 2.2uf in paralell...full power tests when others do their tests at 10 watts and using 10 kilohertz in place to use full power and 20 kilohertz...i had that crazy transformer too... a defective unit i have found...waiting in the future other one face the same trouble, then i will learn from him about the stuff.
I thank you, dear friends, by the kind support..it is nice to be a counterweigth to ballance hostilities from time to time i face from the owner of the truth, the ones have all knowledge, all skills and sometimes talk with the noise crowd.
heheh...i tried in the google, to see if possible a good version of my words...resulted this..very poor version:
"....those who sometimes lose their precious and
golden time throwing a few crumbs of knowledge
superior to the rude and ignorant mob."
Thanks lord they exist..without them we would not be able to listen music!
Carlos
Also Niko Ras and Wahab...interesting point of view.. i am read them all, with interest.
heheheh...i am producing a speaker protection (copy from Slone) dear Sakis..this one let the speaker safe and do not harm sonics.
I have not people complaining about my amplifiers burning... so, i do not think it is an emergency to include protections on them.
I had several burns, but torture tests..full power, clipping square wave, high frequencies, crazy loads using 2.2uf in paralell...full power tests when others do their tests at 10 watts and using 10 kilohertz in place to use full power and 20 kilohertz...i had that crazy transformer too... a defective unit i have found...waiting in the future other one face the same trouble, then i will learn from him about the stuff.
I thank you, dear friends, by the kind support..it is nice to be a counterweigth to ballance hostilities from time to time i face from the owner of the truth, the ones have all knowledge, all skills and sometimes talk with the noise crowd.
heheh...i tried in the google, to see if possible a good version of my words...resulted this..very poor version:
"....those who sometimes lose their precious and
golden time throwing a few crumbs of knowledge
superior to the rude and ignorant mob."
Thanks lord they exist..without them we would not be able to listen music!
Carlos
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I understand you need professional amplifiers Sakis, with protections
I can show you how to calculate them, how to design them..if you need, as i think you already know how to do that.
I can do that by email..but i think you do not need my help on that.
Will not include protections in mine ones, as they are not professional, they are for audiophile, good units, some of them simple, to be made at home, diy stuff.
Also, you can include, if you need, protections in VAS and in the output, using V/I limiters in all amplifiers, the calculation is basic, very simple, and the diagram is knows by everywhere..also you can design them to limit the way you want.
I prefer the stone age method.... a lot of power transistors..but this is not good for business,as turns the amplifier more expensive...because of that they use these hell limiters.
The schematic posted in the first or second post, shows the limiter..that's the way they have found to reduce costs, reduce heatsink size, reduce quantity of output transistors and reduce quality too...so..it is a matter of decision.
To me, in my point of view, the inclusion of limiters is dirty and criminal .. in the vision of other people, having other points of view, it is a perfect technical solution...something unavoidable, extremelly needed... something clean and anjelical.
regards,
Carlos
I can show you how to calculate them, how to design them..if you need, as i think you already know how to do that.
I can do that by email..but i think you do not need my help on that.
Will not include protections in mine ones, as they are not professional, they are for audiophile, good units, some of them simple, to be made at home, diy stuff.
Also, you can include, if you need, protections in VAS and in the output, using V/I limiters in all amplifiers, the calculation is basic, very simple, and the diagram is knows by everywhere..also you can design them to limit the way you want.
I prefer the stone age method.... a lot of power transistors..but this is not good for business,as turns the amplifier more expensive...because of that they use these hell limiters.
The schematic posted in the first or second post, shows the limiter..that's the way they have found to reduce costs, reduce heatsink size, reduce quantity of output transistors and reduce quality too...so..it is a matter of decision.
To me, in my point of view, the inclusion of limiters is dirty and criminal .. in the vision of other people, having other points of view, it is a perfect technical solution...something unavoidable, extremelly needed... something clean and anjelical.
regards,
Carlos
Attachments
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After 50 years building I'm sure you have very good building abilities (at least for building amplifiers in the way they were 25 years ago, because you seem to completely reject all the progress made in the last 25 years)
Creativity and open scientific mind are different abilities. You can build amplifiers for 50 years without developing them. In fact I think you lack both, and it's probably too late in your life to develop them.
I have not been doing anything for 50 years because I'm way younger. However, after 4 years learning class D by myself now I'm the designer of one of the smallest, lightest, most efficient, most cost effective and most powerful subwoofer plate amplifiers currently in the professional audio market. It's (conservatively) rated 4000W @ 2 ohms with greater than 90% efficiency and only 7lbs weight (including heatsink, faceplate and DSP).
This claim is not as eloquent as yours, it's much harder to reject.
Be creative. Make real achievements.
are you saying the same experience every time for 50 yrs ....
Carlos i concur with Bigun, your technical madness
has made me take a look from time to time , i enjoy your Bravado and what you bring to the table, so speak freely, those who know you are mad don't care and the others don't count ... Confucius say: Amp dat can't drive one ohm, have no life for samba
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heheheh... i know this is atractive... people loves some scandall
sometimes is use this to call some attention when i need..not only friends, but to re-direct the conversation to another focus.
Man... life is short...it goes very fast...almost yesterday i was trying to enter the Cinema to an adult movie..... now a days Cinema alike that one does not exists.
Threads that have pictures, discussions, figths, crazy things, madness... all that stuff atract..people comes to have fun.... in the middle of all foolish, you can obtain something interesting and usefull.
Let's have fun!
regards,
Carlos
sometimes is use this to call some attention when i need..not only friends, but to re-direct the conversation to another focus.
Man... life is short...it goes very fast...almost yesterday i was trying to enter the Cinema to an adult movie..... now a days Cinema alike that one does not exists.
Threads that have pictures, discussions, figths, crazy things, madness... all that stuff atract..people comes to have fun.... in the middle of all foolish, you can obtain something interesting and usefull.
Let's have fun!
regards,
Carlos
Symetrical has my vote. IMHO with modern semis it is the best way to go. The amp I'm currently developing uses symetrical bridges with NDFL, and CMEC (common mode error correction) to balance bias and create XLR signals from a SE source. It's different but the results so far are quite promising. XLR stays perfectly balanced well past 1MHz.
I wish I had more time to work on it though.
I wish I had more time to work on it though.
Once you managed to make one work the good way, as
pointed by Nico, you ll never return again to classic LIN
topologies, be it with cascodes , differential Vas and all
that kind of "enhancements".
Symetrical has my vote too... looks beautifull.... symetrical things are the beauty
base... i do like too............. to see the schematic...not to listen the sound.
Sorry, no more symetrical amplifiers in my life....i have already learned they are no good for my ears.
But, as i said before..my people loves...so, they may be good for them.
I use to compare things..when you do this, no way to fool ourselves anymore.... and when possible (helping hand, friends and family helping) then i do blind testing..not knowing what is playing we cannot decide based in our beliefs..the best one will be the choice..for sure.
regards,
Carlos
base... i do like too............. to see the schematic...not to listen the sound.
Sorry, no more symetrical amplifiers in my life....i have already learned they are no good for my ears.
But, as i said before..my people loves...so, they may be good for them.
I use to compare things..when you do this, no way to fool ourselves anymore.... and when possible (helping hand, friends and family helping) then i do blind testing..not knowing what is playing we cannot decide based in our beliefs..the best one will be the choice..for sure.
regards,
Carlos
Quoted from uncle Charly :
To me, in my point of view, the inclusion of limiters is dirty and criminal .. in the vision of other people, having other points of view, it is a perfect technical solution...something unavoidable, extremelly needed... something clean and anjelical.
there you go ....you have your answeroint of view !!!
to start producing an amp or a schematic you have a point of view and a few targets to achive.... brazillian made amps as you showed have some other target ....I have some other targets for some of my amps
( few days ago finished a project that thriled me using a rather easy circuit that produces easilly 350w at 8 ohms with an average topology and a gendle dual slope vi limmiter that thingy is also working with a dangerous online power supply .... Amp is working with absolutelly no problem and hit the targets of cost ,size, kg limitations ,power and quality ...but still no matter how well is builted i am still to afraid to use it ..... )
To me, in my point of view, the inclusion of limiters is dirty and criminal .. in the vision of other people, having other points of view, it is a perfect technical solution...something unavoidable, extremelly needed... something clean and anjelical.
there you go ....you have your answer
oint of view !!!to start producing an amp or a schematic you have a point of view and a few targets to achive.... brazillian made amps as you showed have some other target ....I have some other targets for some of my amps
( few days ago finished a project that thriled me using a rather easy circuit that produces easilly 350w at 8 ohms with an average topology and a gendle dual slope vi limmiter that thingy is also working with a dangerous online power supply .... Amp is working with absolutelly no problem and hit the targets of cost ,size, kg limitations ,power and quality ...but still no matter how well is builted i am still to afraid to use it ..... )
Carlos,
I love your passion, your tireless quest for a better amp, and I reckon you are now producing some damn good designs.
Take real pride in what you have done, and keep moving forward, and do not be too sensitive. The worst flaw in most people is their critical nature, it is negative, and destructive, and always ends in tears - usually for them.
Eva,
May I ask you a question?
Are you male, or female? This is important, because I feel that if you represent yourself as a female, out of respect for women most men will not attack you, even if you attack them. This is a tactical advantage, which, if you misrepresent yourself, is not ethical.
Secondly, why do you criticise Carlos? Has he been rude to you, or upset you in some way? If so, deal with it privately. While it is conceivable your abilities are significant, I have never seen anything from you aside from lofty statements of technical fact and outright denigration of those you deem ignorant. IOW, your contribution here appears to be driven by a need for superiority, largely at the expense of others. And should you be, as I suspect, at least two decades younger than Carlos, consider how smart you will be when you are nearly sixty. Ageism is a cheap shot, and wholly objectionable in this forum.
The problem is that your approach earns you no kudos at all, and from some, passive disrespect. Contrast this with the love many have for Carlos, arguably the most passionate amp designer and assessor on this forum.
Just as you appear to care nothing for the achievements of others, I suggest the same sentiment might be directed back at you. You might concentrate instead on helping people rather than demeaning them. It would be constructive, positive input and earn you a great deal of respect.
Again, are you male or female? Had you not criticised others so mercilessly, this would not be important. But the time is upon us when you should come clean with the members, otherwise the gloves come off.
In closing, I think you are quite smart, and I'm sure I speak for all when I say we would like more of your ability shared in a pleasant, unconditional way.
Hugh
I love your passion, your tireless quest for a better amp, and I reckon you are now producing some damn good designs.
Take real pride in what you have done, and keep moving forward, and do not be too sensitive. The worst flaw in most people is their critical nature, it is negative, and destructive, and always ends in tears - usually for them.
Eva,
May I ask you a question?
Are you male, or female? This is important, because I feel that if you represent yourself as a female, out of respect for women most men will not attack you, even if you attack them. This is a tactical advantage, which, if you misrepresent yourself, is not ethical.
Secondly, why do you criticise Carlos? Has he been rude to you, or upset you in some way? If so, deal with it privately. While it is conceivable your abilities are significant, I have never seen anything from you aside from lofty statements of technical fact and outright denigration of those you deem ignorant. IOW, your contribution here appears to be driven by a need for superiority, largely at the expense of others. And should you be, as I suspect, at least two decades younger than Carlos, consider how smart you will be when you are nearly sixty. Ageism is a cheap shot, and wholly objectionable in this forum.
The problem is that your approach earns you no kudos at all, and from some, passive disrespect. Contrast this with the love many have for Carlos, arguably the most passionate amp designer and assessor on this forum.
Just as you appear to care nothing for the achievements of others, I suggest the same sentiment might be directed back at you. You might concentrate instead on helping people rather than demeaning them. It would be constructive, positive input and earn you a great deal of respect.
Again, are you male or female? Had you not criticised others so mercilessly, this would not be important. But the time is upon us when you should come clean with the members, otherwise the gloves come off.
In closing, I think you are quite smart, and I'm sure I speak for all when I say we would like more of your ability shared in a pleasant, unconditional way.
Hugh
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