I willl modify, very soon, a Dx Amplifier Standard to work with 90 plus 90 volts..it will be modified and prepared to work as a sub amplifier to a three amplifiers system..three amplifiers to each channel.
All them will be Dx amplifier customized, because simple, cheap and reliable.
This is just the first thougth using simulator..you see that the "frame"..the basic amplifier is the standard..nothing special on that..only the feedback capacitors and some adjustments.
This was not assembled..but it will be, and very soon, and for sure will work fine..adjustments and modifications may be made, including an input filter.
Power goes to 780 watts RMS into 4 ohms easy..distortion is high into 200 hertz... for a while, full power goes to 1 percent, and i will reduce that soon.
The amplifier will operate from 1 cicle to 300 cicles.... loosing almost 3 decibels into 300 cicles...the mid unit will start into 300 cicles and -3dB too.
All them will be made using Dx standard.... midrange will operate with 50 volts and treble will operate from 25 volts simetrical separated supplies...one supply to each amplifier...three supplies each channel.
Input will have passive filters and volume pots.
This way you will not worry, anymore, with speaker ballance, also room acoustics....you will need to run a cable from the speaker... 6 wires... one pait to bass, other pair to midranges and the third pair to the tweeter.
Thank you Dudainc to stimulate me to do this way..for a while passive, but Duda wants active.... will do that also.... for the future.
This one was not assembled...it is a son of a simulator...do not assemble for a while..let me debug.... those things into simulator sometimes results not fine...wait a little, please.
Transistors are the ones i have.... the input does not need big transistors, of course....those are the ones i have to work with high voltage...will try others too.
Into 8 ohms, around 435 watts RMS into the threshold of clipping...but this depends on the supply.... bad supply will turn that 200 watts or even less..all depends on the supply power..good supply results good power..bad supply results weak continuous results and interesting peak results.
regards,
Carlos
All them will be Dx amplifier customized, because simple, cheap and reliable.
This is just the first thougth using simulator..you see that the "frame"..the basic amplifier is the standard..nothing special on that..only the feedback capacitors and some adjustments.
This was not assembled..but it will be, and very soon, and for sure will work fine..adjustments and modifications may be made, including an input filter.
Power goes to 780 watts RMS into 4 ohms easy..distortion is high into 200 hertz... for a while, full power goes to 1 percent, and i will reduce that soon.
The amplifier will operate from 1 cicle to 300 cicles.... loosing almost 3 decibels into 300 cicles...the mid unit will start into 300 cicles and -3dB too.
All them will be made using Dx standard.... midrange will operate with 50 volts and treble will operate from 25 volts simetrical separated supplies...one supply to each amplifier...three supplies each channel.
Input will have passive filters and volume pots.
This way you will not worry, anymore, with speaker ballance, also room acoustics....you will need to run a cable from the speaker... 6 wires... one pait to bass, other pair to midranges and the third pair to the tweeter.
Thank you Dudainc to stimulate me to do this way..for a while passive, but Duda wants active.... will do that also.... for the future.
This one was not assembled...it is a son of a simulator...do not assemble for a while..let me debug.... those things into simulator sometimes results not fine...wait a little, please.
Transistors are the ones i have.... the input does not need big transistors, of course....those are the ones i have to work with high voltage...will try others too.
Into 8 ohms, around 435 watts RMS into the threshold of clipping...but this depends on the supply.... bad supply will turn that 200 watts or even less..all depends on the supply power..good supply results good power..bad supply results weak continuous results and interesting peak results.
regards,
Carlos
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Go ahead and try a small signal transistor model in the input stage - the simulator doesn't care if you run it past its ratings. That will give you better distortion numbers, and a better simulation than using a model for a part that doesn't have anywhere near the right characteristics. I'm sure you can find something suitable in your parts stash somewhere when you go to build it. MPSA92?
I've never seen an LTP using MJ15023's - but I have seen them used in a VAS. It was in a 300 watt Gallien-Kreuger bass guitar amp.
Two words: head room. Carlos probably got tired of seeing his amps clip on the o-scope when it's not all *that* loud.
And nobody has a woofer that converts it *all* to sound pressure. The best you can hope for is about half (and that's for a horn).
Ahahahaha!...people loves some distortion...this is reality
When starts to clip, people smile and say..."yeah!...loud!"
hehehehehe.
I have one speaker that can hold all that power... at least can hold the volts and amperes.... i do not know how much will distort when receiving high power levels...the coil can hold all that power...i do not know how will perform.....i am pumping 150 watts now a days and it is asking for more.... we gonna know how will perform with 400 watts and more (8 ohms).
Problem here is to find capacitors to face all that voltage...the supply voltage is very high to my capacitors and electrolitic condensers....for a while i will have to arrange some of them in series, to face more voltage...but this is for s while, as Sakis has send me huge ones that may arrive in November...they are with Dudainc..he may travel to Brazil soon..if not November will be Christmas.
I have no small transistors to that voltage...i will have to use those folks...at least to start some test.... this will not impeach me to do something..if not with the perfect parts will be with non perfect parts for a while.
I will move my ..., will do something...bye folks!
regards,
Carlos
When starts to clip, people smile and say..."yeah!...loud!"
hehehehehe.
I have one speaker that can hold all that power... at least can hold the volts and amperes.... i do not know how much will distort when receiving high power levels...the coil can hold all that power...i do not know how will perform.....i am pumping 150 watts now a days and it is asking for more.... we gonna know how will perform with 400 watts and more (8 ohms).
Problem here is to find capacitors to face all that voltage...the supply voltage is very high to my capacitors and electrolitic condensers....for a while i will have to arrange some of them in series, to face more voltage...but this is for s while, as Sakis has send me huge ones that may arrive in November...they are with Dudainc..he may travel to Brazil soon..if not November will be Christmas.
I have no small transistors to that voltage...i will have to use those folks...at least to start some test.... this will not impeach me to do something..if not with the perfect parts will be with non perfect parts for a while.
I will move my ..., will do something...bye folks!
regards,
Carlos
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That 550w woofer there would become toast 
with a true 300watt amp , much less a 500w+ one ! With twice the magnet and twice the voice coil , a real subwoofer ...
http://www.parts-express.com/pe/pshowdetl.cfm?&DID=7&Partnumber=297-608&ctab=1#Tabs
will "tap" (bottom out ) even in a sealed enclosure at 300w. I know you don't like leach amps or triple outputs , Carlos .. but for subwoofer purposes and a woofer that will occasionally require 2 ohm loads , it is the only way.
(attached below) is the "standard" for all 3 of my amps , I have driven it (different voltage stages)with DX type amps , symasym , self amps ... it does not matter. It will bottom out any woofer out there , including this one ..
http://www.parts-express.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?Partnumber=293-620
(that is with 24 NJW21193/4's as final OPS - 100v rails)
The main advantage to the triple is that IT does all the work , leaving the input/voltage stage alone (much lower distortion). With 70-100v rails , you have nothing to lose with a triple (2 extra Vbe's).
OS
with a true 300watt amp , much less a 500w+ one ! With twice the magnet and twice the voice coil , a real subwoofer ...http://www.parts-express.com/pe/pshowdetl.cfm?&DID=7&Partnumber=297-608&ctab=1#Tabs
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
will "tap" (bottom out ) even in a sealed enclosure at 300w. I know you don't like leach amps or triple outputs , Carlos .. but for subwoofer purposes and a woofer that will occasionally require 2 ohm loads , it is the only way.
(attached below) is the "standard" for all 3 of my amps , I have driven it (different voltage stages)with DX type amps , symasym , self amps ... it does not matter. It will bottom out any woofer out there , including this one ..
http://www.parts-express.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?Partnumber=293-620
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
(that is with 24 NJW21193/4's as final OPS - 100v rails)
The main advantage to the triple is that IT does all the work , leaving the input/voltage stage alone (much lower distortion). With 70-100v rails , you have nothing to lose with a triple (2 extra Vbe's).
OS
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Yes...maybe...tomorrow i will test (or toast maybe)
Today i am feeling lazy...i have prepared the amplifier only...tomorrow i will check and put it to work.
Condensers are in parallel...i have no high voltage ones....the input is MJE15032, also the VAS is the same...the driver is a 100 watts Sanken...nice ones..and the output is under the board.... they are 2SC5200 and 2SA1943... small amplifier using this board..reason why i revert everything to the Dx Standard and make some tweakings into frequencies and currents.
Gonna see them toast (test) tomorrow.
regards,
Carlos
Today i am feeling lazy...i have prepared the amplifier only...tomorrow i will check and put it to work.
Condensers are in parallel...i have no high voltage ones....the input is MJE15032, also the VAS is the same...the driver is a 100 watts Sanken...nice ones..and the output is under the board.... they are 2SC5200 and 2SA1943... small amplifier using this board..reason why i revert everything to the Dx Standard and make some tweakings into frequencies and currents.
Gonna see them toast (test) tomorrow.
regards,
Carlos
Attachments
Really , I did not make fun of the woofer. they do it here , too ... pyle subs and other name brands geared toward the "enthusiast" lie about power ratings all the time. Inside of the woofer.. If it has a 2"-2 1/2" coil , most likely 200w+ will "toast it" 3-4 " coils will do a REAL 300w+. Even with a big coil , in a ported box , the woofer will handle far less wattage than in a sealed one.
Another way to tell if there is truth is the cost $$$ ... the peerless cost 150US $ and the german one (audiopulse- 1KWatt) is $649
.OS
No problem dear Ostry.... we use, down here, in brazil to enlarge specifications
It is possible that monster burns...you just point something possible...and you got the Brazilian spirit man.
Here..everything is enlarged...specifications here are peak, IHF, instantaneous, not continuous and those things..for sure they are this way....eheheheheh
regards,
Carlos
It is possible that monster burns...you just point something possible...and you got the Brazilian spirit man.
Here..everything is enlarged...specifications here are peak, IHF, instantaneous, not continuous and those things..for sure they are this way....eheheheheh
regards,
Carlos
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This circuit will be tested tomorrow.... the supply voltage is more realistic
as my supply will drop to 82 volts under load.
I am using the Dx Standard schematic, to use the same board..this will turn more simple to builders..no special board.
Power now will drop to 340 watts into 8 ohms, and this is more reasonable to use 4 transistors...this will be more safe.... if people want more power, then include the fourth power transistor and connect 4 ohms speakers.
The input filter is in place...passive filter.... -3dB at 400 hertz..no losses into 5 hertz.
Sensitivity was adjusted and condensers are also more realistic, to save some money, and to reduce condensers size.
This gonna be tested tomorrow...wish me luck.
regards,
Carlos
as my supply will drop to 82 volts under load.
I am using the Dx Standard schematic, to use the same board..this will turn more simple to builders..no special board.
Power now will drop to 340 watts into 8 ohms, and this is more reasonable to use 4 transistors...this will be more safe.... if people want more power, then include the fourth power transistor and connect 4 ohms speakers.
The input filter is in place...passive filter.... -3dB at 400 hertz..no losses into 5 hertz.
Sensitivity was adjusted and condensers are also more realistic, to save some money, and to reduce condensers size.
This gonna be tested tomorrow...wish me luck.
regards,
Carlos
That looks interesting Carlos - I will certainly follow this tread closely. 
Given the design parameters you described, it seems you are on the verge of creating the DXzilla - a monster that will smoke lots of Brazilian drivers.
This will certainly resonate with the "powerholics" as you call them.
I have never seen that driver you showed on the first posts - I remember Novik, Bravox and Selenium (the last two are still in business).
Please keep in mind that most drivers (I am aware of) available in Brazil are very inefficient just like most drivers intended for the MI guys (cheap and inefficient by design).
As for the components your friends sent me (to deliver to you)... I hope I can manage time to spend a couple of peaceful weeks in Brazil in the very near future.
That will be after a coordination meeting in Korea (for a project in Libya of all places) towards the end of this month.
Be well and get on with it!
Given the design parameters you described, it seems you are on the verge of creating the DXzilla - a monster that will smoke lots of Brazilian drivers.
This will certainly resonate with the "powerholics" as you call them.
I have never seen that driver you showed on the first posts - I remember Novik, Bravox and Selenium (the last two are still in business).
Please keep in mind that most drivers (I am aware of) available in Brazil are very inefficient just like most drivers intended for the MI guys (cheap and inefficient by design).
As for the components your friends sent me (to deliver to you)... I hope I can manage time to spend a couple of peaceful weeks in Brazil in the very near future.
That will be after a coordination meeting in Korea (for a project in Libya of all places) towards the end of this month.
Be well and get on with it!
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Yep... they like power, and i like to see them building and listening amplifiers...
and when build mine ones i feel even more happy..that feeling we have about "contributing to mankind"....doing something better than earn money only... feeding my big belly with food that we buy with money.... i am trying to feed my spirit, to become a better person.
They are very uneficient, yes, you have agreement Duda...not good alike US and UK drivers...ours is hard to move, have small compliance, heavy coils..and all that stuff is bad for our ears, results bad..... they make the driver tolerate power just turning them hard to move, and thick wire to the coils.... alike to make a car resistant, bullet proof, with thick armour, and then the car does not move, not power enougth to be fast and acelerate... this is the way they are building speakers, alike armoured vehicles...and they are doing this way because market is asking for that kind of stuff, to install in automobiles and with kilowatt amplifier (class D), they go pumping bass around.
The idea Duda, as i told you before, some monthes ago, and you agreed, is that we will have easy balance of bass, mids and treble...this will allow us to have better sound when we have not anecoic room and nor special microphones, also no spectrum analiser to check and equalize our speakers considering our rooms... this way, three knobs may do the job, and, building those amplifier with the same proportion of tones we have in normal music, we can set them same position to have a reference of what may be (more or less) the flat reproduction (not considering room acoustics and speakers..electricaly flat beeing considered the proportion, the ratio of tones that use to be 60 percent for basses, 30 percent for mids and 10 percent for treble).
Another advantage is that sending more simple waveform to the amplifier, or less complex waveform, the audio became better..speakers does not to have to follow complex movements, sometimes receiving "order" from the power amplifier to move forward to the bass while moving backwards for the treble tone.... not having too many frequencies to beat one each other, we will have better performance related harmonics and harmonic distortion.... we know, that simple orchestrations, not dense, not filled with several instruments and several singers same time, sounds much better to amplifiers...or they reproduce better...this is the point.
Other advantage that makes sound better is that you gonna be rid of passive crossover to the speakers, the filters, the ones we call in Brasil as "frequency dividers"...those inductors, resistances and capacitors that turns amplifier unstable...those things are not more used.
I love the passive filter, they are less precise and distorts more than active, but cheap and easy to make...for the future i will make them active too.... this way, to the amplifiers goes the frequency they are expecting to receive into their input... amplifier goes filtered to high frequency into the input, output and feedback line, avoiding high frequencies if they are not made to reproduce highs...this turns the unit safe.... against oscilations.... a slowered down amplifier..not needing to be fast as will reproduce only 1 to 300 hertz or a little bit more than that (bass unit).
I have found, building things in my home..that we have a lot of interaction into the supplies... each channel must have independent supplies, as noises and fluctuations of voltage goes messing the sound...so, this turns a little bit complex as supplies must be many...to a stereo TriAmp you gonna need 6 power transformers.... and i found that transformers with double output is no good too..the winding interact and core saturations are a problem too..so...there's a chance to folks to use all that junk of transformers they have...put them to work folks!... also use that buch of condensers you have collected througth the years, as those ones are doing anything , just laying down and scratching one against the others inside your junk box.
I am listening huge advantage into the quality..audio quality became better while using my BiAmp... and i hope the TriAmp will sound even better...i will be rid of some passive filters i am using into the output (mids and highs filter) and will be rid of power supply interations.
I am excited with that, and found that solution listening neighboor that have Panasonic BiAmp systems..they play more clear than others... even having worse circuit than some Sony, worse power amplifier chips and more dense circuit (more stages, a lot of buffers and electronic switches) they are playing even better sound... i have a lot of neighboors with many brands around...and the Panasonic plays better sound..... i think the BiAmp they use (subwoofer speaker, and double power amplifier..one for treble and other for basses).
So... alike the powder without smoke..... not a discovery, just to be attention about what is going on around my home.... the clever folks already have pointed the solution for us..we have just to follow them and do something about.
regards,
Carlos
and when build mine ones i feel even more happy..that feeling we have about "contributing to mankind"....doing something better than earn money only... feeding my big belly with food that we buy with money.... i am trying to feed my spirit, to become a better person.
They are very uneficient, yes, you have agreement Duda...not good alike US and UK drivers...ours is hard to move, have small compliance, heavy coils..and all that stuff is bad for our ears, results bad..... they make the driver tolerate power just turning them hard to move, and thick wire to the coils.... alike to make a car resistant, bullet proof, with thick armour, and then the car does not move, not power enougth to be fast and acelerate... this is the way they are building speakers, alike armoured vehicles...and they are doing this way because market is asking for that kind of stuff, to install in automobiles and with kilowatt amplifier (class D), they go pumping bass around.
The idea Duda, as i told you before, some monthes ago, and you agreed, is that we will have easy balance of bass, mids and treble...this will allow us to have better sound when we have not anecoic room and nor special microphones, also no spectrum analiser to check and equalize our speakers considering our rooms... this way, three knobs may do the job, and, building those amplifier with the same proportion of tones we have in normal music, we can set them same position to have a reference of what may be (more or less) the flat reproduction (not considering room acoustics and speakers..electricaly flat beeing considered the proportion, the ratio of tones that use to be 60 percent for basses, 30 percent for mids and 10 percent for treble).
Another advantage is that sending more simple waveform to the amplifier, or less complex waveform, the audio became better..speakers does not to have to follow complex movements, sometimes receiving "order" from the power amplifier to move forward to the bass while moving backwards for the treble tone.... not having too many frequencies to beat one each other, we will have better performance related harmonics and harmonic distortion.... we know, that simple orchestrations, not dense, not filled with several instruments and several singers same time, sounds much better to amplifiers...or they reproduce better...this is the point.
Other advantage that makes sound better is that you gonna be rid of passive crossover to the speakers, the filters, the ones we call in Brasil as "frequency dividers"...those inductors, resistances and capacitors that turns amplifier unstable...those things are not more used.
I love the passive filter, they are less precise and distorts more than active, but cheap and easy to make...for the future i will make them active too.... this way, to the amplifiers goes the frequency they are expecting to receive into their input... amplifier goes filtered to high frequency into the input, output and feedback line, avoiding high frequencies if they are not made to reproduce highs...this turns the unit safe.... against oscilations.... a slowered down amplifier..not needing to be fast as will reproduce only 1 to 300 hertz or a little bit more than that (bass unit).
I have found, building things in my home..that we have a lot of interaction into the supplies... each channel must have independent supplies, as noises and fluctuations of voltage goes messing the sound...so, this turns a little bit complex as supplies must be many...to a stereo TriAmp you gonna need 6 power transformers.... and i found that transformers with double output is no good too..the winding interact and core saturations are a problem too..so...there's a chance to folks to use all that junk of transformers they have...put them to work folks!... also use that buch of condensers you have collected througth the years, as those ones are doing anything , just laying down and scratching one against the others inside your junk box.
I am listening huge advantage into the quality..audio quality became better while using my BiAmp... and i hope the TriAmp will sound even better...i will be rid of some passive filters i am using into the output (mids and highs filter) and will be rid of power supply interations.
I am excited with that, and found that solution listening neighboor that have Panasonic BiAmp systems..they play more clear than others... even having worse circuit than some Sony, worse power amplifier chips and more dense circuit (more stages, a lot of buffers and electronic switches) they are playing even better sound... i have a lot of neighboors with many brands around...and the Panasonic plays better sound..... i think the BiAmp they use (subwoofer speaker, and double power amplifier..one for treble and other for basses).
So... alike the powder without smoke..... not a discovery, just to be attention about what is going on around my home.... the clever folks already have pointed the solution for us..we have just to follow them and do something about.
regards,
Carlos
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Thank you, Greg Erskine (Gerskine at our forum) by your kind cooperation
Board was made by Greg.
I have installed the output transistors bellow the board, attached to the heatsink and connected to the board using 2 inches long wires... non parallel wires.
regards,
Carlos
Board was made by Greg.
I have installed the output transistors bellow the board, attached to the heatsink and connected to the board using 2 inches long wires... non parallel wires.
regards,
Carlos
Attachments
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Simulator and real life is really different
The amplifier gave me a bad time.... i had to tweak a lot to make it work, a lot of changes were made..then i felt it ugly, too much hot (small Heatsink) and i decide to make another one to use 62 plus 62 (non loaded voltage).
Tomorrow i will listen this one..the other was not fine...supply droping a lot...no good supply, also i had not condensers enougth and this resulted that supply was not filtered in a decent way...well....no way to do that one with this transformer and without big condensers to 100 volts....for a while, lets go with lower power.
regards,
Carlos
The amplifier gave me a bad time.... i had to tweak a lot to make it work, a lot of changes were made..then i felt it ugly, too much hot (small Heatsink) and i decide to make another one to use 62 plus 62 (non loaded voltage).
Tomorrow i will listen this one..the other was not fine...supply droping a lot...no good supply, also i had not condensers enougth and this resulted that supply was not filtered in a decent way...well....no way to do that one with this transformer and without big condensers to 100 volts....for a while, lets go with lower power.
regards,
Carlos
Attachments
97dB sound efficient to me. The RMS rating on that driver is shown as 250W and the peak power is shown as 500W. Here is a link to the spec sheet.
http://www.oversound.com.br/index.php?lingua=&pag=../loja/loja_produto&cat=126&pro=3372
Thanks Steve - I never heard of this manufacturer before...
Based on my experience with speaker manufacturers in Brazil for the last 20+ years, I have a hard time to believe the published specs.
Based on my experience with speaker manufacturers in Brazil for the last 20+ years, I have a hard time to believe the published specs.
It's common practice for all manufacturers to use average SPL over the whole "ueasble" range for SPL 1M/1W. That includes the breakup peaks, which can be +10dB. Half-space reference sensitivity is easily calculated from T/S paramteters, and usually ends up some 3dB down from what's claimed based on average. It's probably about 94 dB, the same as similar drivers.
Some of the junk they put in "white van DJ speakers" can be really low efficiency - 88dB or even less and can have Qts over 1.0. Most of them are made in China. They also can be had for $20 for a 15" (so if you blow it it's no big loss). The ones Carlos is using aren't that bad - they're something like an Eminence Beta 15 or a bit up from that.
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