Seeking the ultimate amp

[Crassus]

Hi,

I've been looking at different amps (Tripath based kits, Gainclones, Hypex kits etc) but it's really difficult to judge which kits are good and which are bad. People tend to praise their recent builds and often the verbal evaluation doesn't matter much if the "best I've heard" actually means that few amps in sub <500€ category didn't sound as good.

I've also read on other forums that e.g. 41hz kit Truepath sounds better than Pass amps or Mark Levinsons but on other forums people say that it's complete hogwash. Same thing with gainclones. I recently sold my Nad M3 as I'm curious to try the DIY stuff but I definately don't want to build something that is miles away from serious performers like Mark Levinsons, Musical Fidelity stuff or flag ship Nads.

What amp would you guys recommend if the purpose was to get serious fidelity with moderate power (50W is ok, the more the merrier)? I know this is somewhat subjective, but I would really appreciate if some of the guru's who have built tripath, gainclone, hypex etc amps would step in and tell which ones are their absolute favourites.

Ps. I tried the search and have browsed several threads but didn't find many comparisons.

[kipman725]

if they are well designed they should sound the same when not operating near the limits of there power rating after all they are all doing the same job all be it with different tech. The was a moster classA amplifier design posted:
http://www.hardwareanalysis.com/cont...diy-amplifier/
that thing has excelent performance.

[Crassus]

Originally Posted by kipman725

if they are well designed they should sound the same when not operating near the limits of there power rating after all they are all doing the same job all be it with different tech. The was a moster classA amplifier design posted:
http://www.hardwareanalysis.com/cont...diy-amplifier/
that thing has excelent performance.

I agree that good amplifiers should sound the same but in the real world they seldomly do (I quess that's why there are so many X amp beats Y and C easilty in terms of sound quality discussions). I'm now using a relatively cheap Tripath based Kingrex amp with Auricaps mods, good psu etc and it has some kind of a signature sound which I like and it does plenty of things right but it also sounds different than my previous A-class powerhouse and lacks the power and the absolute quality. I hate these terms but the music seems to flow easier on the Tripath but my previous "big" amplifiers like the Nad M3 beat it on resolution (which unfortunately can sometimes cause fatigue when listening to a heavily compressed / bad record).

I have previously tried to solve the problem with brute force (through more money at the problem and get a "better" amp) but I'm starting to think that there's just too much snake oil in the business and the DIY stuff could be an interesting route.

I found this thread about reference DIY amps and I would be interested in trying the Krell clones but unfortunately they are out of my league (I don't have the skills or the tools to make them).

The Hypex UCD kits seem nice and have received much praise but I'm wondering if the quality is on a "reference" level.

[kipman725]

The Hypex amps come already asyembled? so you only have to do casework? seems like the easiest way. Reference level for me is when the SNR of the system is better than 96dB at listening level at this point CD as a source is the limiting factor. That should not be hard to achive as even my very gheto design achives much better than that in the simulator.

I don't trust my own ears personaly beyond glaring problems too much psycoacustics in there. Also I find alot depends on my mood, my speakers always sound much better at night.

[Crassus]

Originally Posted by kipman725

The Hypex amps come already asyembled? so you only have to do casework? seems like the easiest way. Reference level for me is when the SNR of the system is better than 96dB at listening level at this point CD as a source is the limiting factor. That should not be hard to achive as even my very gheto design achives much better than that in the simulator.

I don't trust my own ears personaly beyond glaring problems too much psycoacustics in there. Also I find alot depends on my mood, my speakers always sound much better at night.

What you described doesn't sound quite right to me. I'm somewhat of an engineer by trade and rely on mathematics and measurements when I judge a system but that can only take you so far. SNR to me is one of the least important factors. As an example, it's quite easy to put an electrolyte in the ouput of a DAC to remove any artifacts and get better SNR but at the same time it also takes away something. It's easy to do tweaks that improve the measurements but sometimes those same tweaks rob the very soul of the device. Recently I removed the coupling caps from my dac and that made a big difference but I'm not sure what the measurements would say. I also believe that stuff like TIM distortion is very relevant so traditional measurements only represent a part of the picture.

The hypex devices are prebuilt so that would make it an easy solution but I'm not looking for the easiest route. I would be interested to learn about the best DIY solutions that are achievable without lab equipment. I could always get a second hand amp e.g. Mark Levinson or Treshold amp for 50% but maybe, just maybe the DIY stuff could provide the same quality with less or the same amount of money and also teach me something and provide a nice building experience. What do you guys think about the UCD180 modules? Are these in the same league as commercial high end amps?

[Greg Erskine]

hi Crassus,

Start building.... it's the only way you will get the "right" answer.

regards

[nigelwright7557]

Originally Posted by Crassus

Hi,

I've been looking at different amps (Tripath based kits, Gainclones, Hypex kits etc) but it's really difficult to judge which kits are good and which are bad. People tend to praise their recent builds and often the verbal evaluation doesn't matter much if the "best I've heard" actually means that few amps in sub <500€ category didn't sound as good.

I've also read on other forums that e.g. 41hz kit Truepath sounds better than Pass amps or Mark Levinsons but on other forums people say that it's complete hogwash. Same thing with gainclones. I recently sold my Nad M3 as I'm curious to try the DIY stuff but I definately don't want to build something that is miles away from serious performers like Mark Levinsons, Musical Fidelity stuff or flag ship Nads.

What amp would you guys recommend if the purpose was to get serious fidelity with moderate power (50W is ok, the more the merrier)? I know this is somewhat subjective, but I would really appreciate if some of the guru's who have built tripath, gainclone, hypex etc amps would step in and tell which ones are their absolute favourites.

Ps. I tried the search and have browsed several threads but didn't find many comparisons.

An amps sound is very subjective, what one person thinks is great is very poor to someone else.

The best way is to listen to other peoples amps and then decide for yourself.

Some people spend thousands to get 0.0001% distortion while i like an overdriven valve amp with 10% distortion.

[tinitus]

What do they say, "it sounds good, until you hear something better"

[Crassus]

Originally Posted by Greg Erskine

hi Crassus,

Start building.... it's the only way you will get the "right" answer.

I was kinda hoping that I wouldn't have to build every amp that I find interesting and then compare them

I'm trying to figure out if DIY is worth the effort compared to commercial products or even second hand amps from big manufacturers. I've seen relatively cheap NHT amps based on icepower modules by B&O and I'm wondering if Hypex products would offer more (also considering that commercial amps are easier to resell if there's something I don't like).

I quess I need to dig deeper into the subject and try to find unbiased reviews which is not very easy considering that the internet is full of hypex, tripath, gainclone etc advocates who are very enthusiastic about their products and consider their amps superior. In addition to the hypex amps I find the Pass amps quite interesting as well as the leach amps.

[tinitus]

Originally Posted by Crassus

I'm trying to figure out if DIY is worth the effort compared to commercial products or even second hand amps from big manufacturers.

Seems to me like theres only 2 economical sensible options
The very cheap way, or the the all out version
The ones in between are probably not economical, just fun to build
Besides the very rewarding experience, its also very nice to know whats in that box

But sure, if those German ABACUS amps are as good as rewieved, they are very hard to beat, economically
And the small 25watt Dayens Ampino cost only 220EUR
Hell, some people pay more just for exotic attenuators

When you have built some amps, maybe you can start thinking exstreme
Just dont start with calculating costs, you wont like that, it cost money, sometimes a lot

But in the end, your speakers and listening habbits determine whats possible, in more than one way
I dont like to remember how many times I have had the right amps, with the wrong speakers, and next time the other way round
If you seek the ultimate, it will be a never ending story
Takes a lot of experience and practice, and why this "hobby" is so difficult, and it really is
No simple answers, sorry
I have spent my entire life on this, and Im just beginning to comprehend bits of it
But its fun
And its needed to enjoy music
At least to me it is