if i asked what amp sounds best i would get a million different answers. somebody would say his 1 watt amp made out of a single tube back in the 60s with 10% thd sounds best. somebody else would say the amp he made using some $5 class D chip and a few capacitors sounds the best etc. that is why i am wording the question differently.
if we look at *serious* *high-end* amplifier makers such as Bryston, Krell etc. which ones do you think employ the most advanced technology in the most appropriate ( for ultimate audio fildelity ) way and using the best components ?
in other words which amps should theoretically sound best from an objective engineering standpoint ? and most importantly why !
for example "this amp is best because it uses such and such topology which is superior because of this and that" ...
thank you !
if we look at *serious* *high-end* amplifier makers such as Bryston, Krell etc. which ones do you think employ the most advanced technology in the most appropriate ( for ultimate audio fildelity ) way and using the best components ?
in other words which amps should theoretically sound best from an objective engineering standpoint ? and most importantly why !
for example "this amp is best because it uses such and such topology which is superior because of this and that" ...
thank you !
That is an invalid question.
Different amps sound better to different people.
Personally I prefer guitar valve amplifiers for their harmonic content.
Perfectly explained in this
Read it and weap
http://www.6moons.com/audioreviews/artaudio10/jota.html
Read it and weap
http://www.6moons.com/audioreviews/artaudio10/jota.html
First you must define what 'sound best' means.
'From an objective engineering standpoint' means you will never listen to it, because all listening is subjective not objective.
And when you say 'which ones do you think employ the most advanced technology' what makes you think that there is anything amiss with *old* technology? (Nowt so linear as a Triode?)
While pursuing your quest there are two things to keep in mind ...
1) remember that you never actually listen to an amplifier. You always listen to a system that contains an amplifier.
2) it is the dumbest engineers (and marketing managers) that believe that human hearing operates the same as electronic test-bench equipment.
Good luck.
Let's not call the engineers dumb, but perhaps misguided.
I am currently reading Floyd Toole's book on Speakers & Rooms, and one thing he keeps hammering away at is how a microphone & an analyzer is not so nearly capable as 2 ears + a brain.
dave
I was going to post something long, but I gave up.
Short reply: we might not be using the right equipment for the right measurements.
I do believe that it is possible to measure what is right, but we still haven't figured it out. An analogy from the Toole book: I have in the past had it thrown at me that Toole has shown that flat FR is the most important metric when considering a speaker. This takes on a completely different meaning when you find out that his metric for FR requires 70 different FR measures taken in an anechoic chamber and assumes at least a certian level of competence in other area.
Harmonic distortion can tell you some stuff about your amplifiers sound, but takes a lot more than looking at the single number given in the spec sheets.
And interpreting the n-space manifold in an n+1 space (n >=3) is a whole nuther can of worms. I'm pretty sure there are guys who do know but it is to there competitive advantage to keep that to themselves.
dave
Ok let me rephrase.
Let's say you were given a contract by NASA to build the best sounding amp. You were given a team of engineers to supervise. You were allowed to use any devices ( transistors, tubes, op-amps etc ) that were currently in production and you would be allowed to make custom transformers and heatsinks. there would be no size, power or cost limits.
what kind of amp would you build ? and what logic would you use to build it ?
Let's say you were given a contract by NASA to build the best sounding amp. You were given a team of engineers to supervise. You were allowed to use any devices ( transistors, tubes, op-amps etc ) that were currently in production and you would be allowed to make custom transformers and heatsinks. there would be no size, power or cost limits.
what kind of amp would you build ? and what logic would you use to build it ?
Perfectly explained in this
Read it and weap
http://www.6moons.com/audioreviews/artaudio10/jota.html
OK i skimmed through it. what is your point ?
I'll tell you guys what MY philosophy is when it comes to amplifiers.
I believe the best sounding amp will be a very complex design with a very simple signal path.
For example starting with an average amplifier you can first give it separate power supplies for left and right channels. then you can perhaps split the power supply for the gain and the output stages. then you can make power supplies regulated. all of this would of course amount to a very large increase in complexity.
at the same time however you could be taking steps to SIMPLIFY the actual signal path. reduce the number of gain stages, eliminate any unnecessary parts such as inverter at the input ( use differential input directly ) etc.
switching to class A operation would also simplify the life of the signal so to speak while at the same time it may require increasing the complexity of the amp elsewhere. for example to avoid ripple / hum you may need to use a more complex power supply design and to avoid overheating you may need to use some sort of microprocessor control of bias etc.
so basically i believe the path to perfection is at the same time through greater use of technology in the *supporting* parts of the amplifier and through greater simplicity in the actual signal path.
i think Krell is more or less headed in that direction. no ?
what do you think about all this ?
I believe the best sounding amp will be a very complex design with a very simple signal path.
For example starting with an average amplifier you can first give it separate power supplies for left and right channels. then you can perhaps split the power supply for the gain and the output stages. then you can make power supplies regulated. all of this would of course amount to a very large increase in complexity.
at the same time however you could be taking steps to SIMPLIFY the actual signal path. reduce the number of gain stages, eliminate any unnecessary parts such as inverter at the input ( use differential input directly ) etc.
switching to class A operation would also simplify the life of the signal so to speak while at the same time it may require increasing the complexity of the amp elsewhere. for example to avoid ripple / hum you may need to use a more complex power supply design and to avoid overheating you may need to use some sort of microprocessor control of bias etc.
so basically i believe the path to perfection is at the same time through greater use of technology in the *supporting* parts of the amplifier and through greater simplicity in the actual signal path.
i think Krell is more or less headed in that direction. no ?
what do you think about all this ?
First , I would build a output stage that would not know the difference between a cheap loudspeaker or a "wire" (killer damping factor). With a NASA budget , I would build a massive class A stage (no Xover distortion) with 8-10 pair IRF240/9240's , power it with 2KVA trafo's / 200,000uf Filtering. After that ,I would find the best PPM voltage stage to run into that massive current stage , and , of course , run that off of a separate trafo / with regulated supplies.
What I have just described is not conceptual (genesis stealth amp) , and it does sound better. I just don't like all the heat .......
I don't have AC , so for me , all the above is great , except for the Class A stage. Using a class B stage (refined triple EF) You can get real close to the perfection described above. For some that "close" is not enough. Perhaps the fact that they know it is NOT class A adds to this subjectively.
Complex can mean splitting the job up.... separate input/voltage amp , dedicated output board , each with it's own supply , current sources , and filtering. It can even go further , a separate amp for each speaker (bi/tri amping).
OS
You do the best amplifiers...say..your faith can do that
First try one of those famous speakers drivers Planet can point you.... use a plug, but not a heavy solid plug... a strong plug with the needed circular, or semi-eliptical shape.
Second, try a tower speaker, wavelength ones or acoustic "labirinto"..folded dipoles or something alike..speakers designed with tunels inside.
Then try one class A amplifier...Nelson Pass is the best on them, small parts count, small number of stages, a non complicated amplifier not to distort too much....IF you can manage the heat..if your home is in a cold country.
Install wire potentiometers into the tweeter to ballance the bass and treble ratio.
Do not use pré amplifiers..they are one more equipment into the audio chain to create problems..use a potentiometer in the amplifier input only.
Do not save money in electrolitic condenser to your supply
Call an acoustic engineer to design an acoustic room for you... call Dudainc and pay the money he ask you..let him design and obbey orders without discuss.
Enjoy your music and never call people to evaluate... they will feel envy and will try to destroy your faith.
.... OR.... go to listen live performances, as amplifiers and speakers cannot reproduce music perfectly..because speakers are technologically very weak..air pumps!
Faith is the best wide world amplifier...if you have the belief yours is better..than it can harsh, crash, distort as a hell, produce noises and you will feel good.
Three watts, clean watts, each channel is more than you really need to listen your music without damage ears or bother neighboors.
Simple...call the best ones...Nelson for amplifiers... Planet for speakers... Dudainc for acoustics..do what they say without discuss....use your faith and select the best ones.
I am not kidding.
Carlos
.......................................................................................................................................
Post scriptum:
Why i changed my mind about class A...those mufled animals!.... Medicine doctor and my audiogram show me my ears (hearing, audition) are not fine..i am having losses into high frequencies... they are worse compared to AB into the high end..but you can manage that with good and double tweeters, adjusting level with a wire potentiometer (reostato)
AB amplifiers are good...but they sound better while operating class A
First try one of those famous speakers drivers Planet can point you.... use a plug, but not a heavy solid plug... a strong plug with the needed circular, or semi-eliptical shape.
Second, try a tower speaker, wavelength ones or acoustic "labirinto"..folded dipoles or something alike..speakers designed with tunels inside.
Then try one class A amplifier...Nelson Pass is the best on them, small parts count, small number of stages, a non complicated amplifier not to distort too much....IF you can manage the heat..if your home is in a cold country.
Install wire potentiometers into the tweeter to ballance the bass and treble ratio.
Do not use pré amplifiers..they are one more equipment into the audio chain to create problems..use a potentiometer in the amplifier input only.
Do not save money in electrolitic condenser to your supply
Call an acoustic engineer to design an acoustic room for you... call Dudainc and pay the money he ask you..let him design and obbey orders without discuss.
Enjoy your music and never call people to evaluate... they will feel envy and will try to destroy your faith.
.... OR.... go to listen live performances, as amplifiers and speakers cannot reproduce music perfectly..because speakers are technologically very weak..air pumps!
Faith is the best wide world amplifier...if you have the belief yours is better..than it can harsh, crash, distort as a hell, produce noises and you will feel good.
Three watts, clean watts, each channel is more than you really need to listen your music without damage ears or bother neighboors.
Simple...call the best ones...Nelson for amplifiers... Planet for speakers... Dudainc for acoustics..do what they say without discuss....use your faith and select the best ones.
I am not kidding.
Carlos
.......................................................................................................................................
Post scriptum:
Why i changed my mind about class A...those mufled animals!.... Medicine doctor and my audiogram show me my ears (hearing, audition) are not fine..i am having losses into high frequencies... they are worse compared to AB into the high end..but you can manage that with good and double tweeters, adjusting level with a wire potentiometer (reostato)
AB amplifiers are good...but they sound better while operating class A
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Take the most linear output transistors, no matter what power rating and carefully match hundreds of them.
http://www.gte-audio.de/en/index.htm
http://www.gte-audio.de/en/index.htm
It is very probably that none of us will never find that out, because none of us is likely to live long enough to get to know each and every amplifier and amplifier designer in the world.
Theoretically it takes an engineer to optimize all aspects of an amplifier at the same time, which is not possible, because some aspects are contradicting each other. So it takes compromises and the best amplifier will be the one, where the designer chose the same compromises, you would have chosen in his place.
An amplifier is always only a part of the chain and interacts with the source and the speakers, neither of which is a fixed entitiy. Optimize an amplifier for one CD player with a certain impedance and output filter, connect a different CD player with a different impedance and/or output filter and the overall performance will change. Just look at the choice of loudspeakers you can connect to an amplifier, dynamic, electrostatic, full-range, n-way, with nominal impedances of 2, 4, 6, 8, etc. Ohm, nearly flat impedance curves or zig-zagging up and down like crazy, more or less reactive at different frequencies, and so on. Impossible to build an amplifier that is even theoretically the best in each and every combination.
The advantage of DIY is that you can optimize the amplifier for your chain and your taste.
But also the opposite seems to work: One (or two not complementary)powerful transistors, no matter how linear and a topology with steadily increasing complexity over the years to compensate the non-linearities. (post 39)
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?t=66334&highlight=gamut&page=4
No-one ever, ever, ever says just build the best. There are always, always, always terms and conditions. Even if your theoretical Nasa project was given the go-ahead there would be...
...a time limit (otherwise you would be changing and refining for quite litterally the rest of your life).
...a situational / environment requirement (otherwise would you design for a public stadium, an underground bunker, or an aircraft cockpit?).
...interface requirements (otherwise do you design for a 100 mV input and a 8 Ohm load, or a 2V input and a 300 Ohm load, or etc., etc.?)
There will always be conditions which result in a specification which the design must meet. Even for us that do this at home for fun, there is always a specification even if it is mostly sub-conscious!
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