why bass is tight and controlled on SS than chipamps like lm3886? - diyAudio
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Old 11th December 2008, 04:53 PM   #1
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Default why bass is tight and controlled on SS than chipamps like lm3886?

I had a doubt why does the ss amps are rated good for well and tight controlled bass...
is it becoz of heavy current output devices in SS than in Chipamps? or is it possible to the chipamps to deliver such high output currents?
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Old 11th December 2008, 06:17 PM   #2
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Default Power limit, over current limit, protections, temperature limit


Protection to short circuit, protection to overtemperature, to overcurrent, to over voltage, to under voltage.

All that stuff killed sonics...there's no protection against not perfect sonics.

If you accept to adjust 10 watts into your average power you gonna be very happy with your chip amplifier...nothing will produce more nice sonics (exception is high end a little bit worse than good solid state designs)...but DO NOT try to have power.

Those "toys" were made to be small, simple, cheap and very good...not to give you power.

I am talking about AB amplifiers...Class D is another story.

Carlos
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Old 12th December 2008, 12:07 AM   #3
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Nicely said ,DX . I was going to comment but feared chipamp lovers would beat me senseless.
Chipamp stays in TV, not
for MY speakers..
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Old 12th December 2008, 12:25 AM   #4
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Default Re: why bass is tight and controlled on SS than chipamps like lm3886?

Quote:
Originally posted by rhythmdiy
Chipamps? or is it possible to the chipamps to deliver such high output currents?

A chip amp that is capable of 50 watts will deliver the same current as a SS amp of 50 watts. A lot of the chip amp projects seen on this forum are poorly done, with undersized smoothing caps and other "boutique" BS that will undermine its good performance. Who would build a serious solid state amp with the equivalent of board decoupling caps for smoothing and current reserve?
Build it properly, with the right components and then have a listen. Come back and say there is no tight bass...
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Old 12th December 2008, 12:50 AM   #5
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Quote:
A chip amp that is capable of 50 watts will deliver the same current as a SS amp of 50 watts. A lot of the chip amp projects seen on this forum are poorly done, with undersized smoothing caps and other "boutique" BS that will undermine its good performance. Who would build a serious solid state amp with the equivalent of board decoupling caps for smoothing and current reserve?
I "sort of" agree with your statement.. Many a THX certified sub-
woofer systems are powered by bridged chipamps, and sound good... BUT a SS amp without SOA protection will on
occasion produce transients that are unhindered by any
protection adding more to the "punch" . With the exact same
PS (40-0-40 - 20k uf), A dx original or symasym would
pound the "u know what" out of a 3886..
OS
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Old 12th December 2008, 01:11 AM   #6
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Quote:
Originally posted by ostripper

A dx original or symasym would
pound the "u know what" out of a 3886..
OS

Not with the same power supply. This I know because I have built quite a few chip amps. The spike protection will not have any effect under normal operating conditions. A good power supply, good hearsink to guard against overheating (and engaging the spike protection) and sticking with good practices design for amps in general will give excellent results.
For low power applications, they are very hard to beat.
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Old 12th December 2008, 04:15 AM   #7
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Default Re: Re: why bass is tight and controlled on SS than chipamps like lm3886?

Quote:
Originally posted by MJL21193



A chip amp that is capable of 50 watts will deliver the same current as a SS amp of 50 watts. A lot of the chip amp projects seen on this forum are poorly done, with undersized smoothing caps and other "boutique" BS that will undermine its good performance. Who would build a serious solid state amp with the equivalent of board decoupling caps for smoothing and current reserve?
Build it properly, with the right components and then have a listen. Come back and say there is no tight bass...
well then If I want to build a chipamp bpa then how much capacitance is required to get as good performance as SS.. I mean in terms of Bass

as Its said over and over in amps like Jeff Rowlands and 47 labs gain card amps its said its ultimately good for mids and highs but in order to get right bass how much capacitance should be used per channel? 100,000ufd? is enough? with 6 chips in BPA?

what about the damping factor? how well a chipamp controls the 10 inch woofer? I just had a doubt about it... can u guys please help me out... in deciding which one to go with it....
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Old 12th December 2008, 05:08 AM   #8
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Good replies.
My thoughts are there is no magic here, the chip amps are just very good circuits with heaps of constant current sources and very tightly matched devices. The distortion is good at low power. They hit the headlines with the Gaincard which used undersized ps caps which of course gave the bass a different quality (lean and fast) than most discrete SS amps they were compared with. Any SS amp would have the same sound with small caps.

If you say it's a chip amp without knowing what power supply is running it you can't say much about how it will sound. Within their power and current limits there are no aural penalties that I can hear when compared to a discrete bipolar amp. If a chip amp has bad bass it is not the fault of the 'chip'.

Edit I have used 10,000uF per rail, depends on your speaker's impedance and behaviour .Also the transformer size, VA and regulation is a big factor.
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Old 12th December 2008, 08:09 AM   #9
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Default Internal limiters inside chip amplifiers can kill your sound quality


I have studied some and have burned 6 chips.... many models used into testing.

I found sound great if you decide to listen them 1/4 to maximum power...never reaching the maximum.

Here you can see a video showing the crossover noises when the protection enters... when you reach the maximum the over current protection enters... listen the real thing happening.

By the way, there are 70 small videos into Youtube...just type Dx Amplifier and enjoy a lot of small video tests and local pictures if you like that stuff.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=34pYSsYNXa0

If i was someone that could accept power around 10 watts i would quit my search on good amplifiers...chip would be more than enougth..in special LM4780 is very good (despite mine gone in flames to the hell).... also the treble is not perfect but very good.

They use all needed sophisticated aided subcircuits without any kind of economy... all differentials, current sink, voltage and current regulators, stabilizers, compensations, mirrors, fets and all needed stuff having matched parts and precision internal resistances...non inductive things, small patches inside... all we can dream when doing discrete...so.... could be better than discrete if size was not so small and protections killing sonics.

The old Sanyo STK had good sound and not those limiting things... the result was they could burn but while operating had nice sound...all technologie is inside...modern circuits...last developments and discoveries are inside those chips....but the need to be reliable, the need not to burn, the need to be cheap, the need to be very small...all those decisions are killing sonics.

Potentially they could be the maximum possible quality...but market does not accept small reliability...so.... factory is protecting...now you have long life and less perfect sonics.

Carlos
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Old 12th December 2008, 08:17 AM   #10
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Default This one i am "burning"... playing with this toy


Sounds very good....but it is funny, can pump 25 watts into 4 outputs ... 25 RMS each output (Automobile CD player from Sony).... nice sound...but it has small size..imagine to dissipate 160 watts (all channels pumping maximum power... this may be the consumption) using the small metal tab?

The result was controled...power was controled by heat sensors...automatic control...when your car is 35 degrees celsius, when under the sunligth, hot weather..power goes to 3 watts each channel..ahahahahah!

I am trying to burn it...it is beeing hard to do that...protection works fine.

The designer was clever..you switch on when cold and pumps delicious sound..tigth bass.... a good "demonstration"..and when you start to feel happy the power was already reduced slowly and you do not perceive that...so..you continue happy!

Carlos
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