Re: Eyes closed, AV amp detected!
..most people should be able to tell the difference between two power amps. by merely twiddling the volume control to determine which goes into clip first........
...however, if both are driven to precisely the same voltage swing, and within their current limits, into the same loudspeaker in turn, no human ear will differentiate between them....this assumes of course that the measured distortion for both units is low, (say <.1% across the audio band)...
carlosfm said:nw,
I told you I can pay more attention to music details and quality with my eyes closed.
Have you tried it?
So... as long as you don't keep switching A and B like there's no tomorrow, I can say where is the AV (or the cheap) amp.
Let that switch alone, nw, let me hear a little more!
Some people are audiophile.
nw is 'avphile'.
Just joking...
..most people should be able to tell the difference between two power amps. by merely twiddling the volume control to determine which goes into clip first........
...however, if both are driven to precisely the same voltage swing, and within their current limits, into the same loudspeaker in turn, no human ear will differentiate between them....this assumes of course that the measured distortion for both units is low, (say <.1% across the audio band)...
"So, if the differences between amplifiers are as obvious as "coffee and coke", why are they so hard to pick out in blind tests Pan?"
Honestly I don´t know, as all amps I have heard have had significant differences, and I think all of them have had 0.05% THD or less at 1-10W. But as suggested by me earlier, low resolving power of the speakers and bad room acoustics will make it hard to differentiate between any component upstream.
"But I have to ask: Should we train the person who cannot hear some subtle difference in what to listen for or just let them enjoy the music?"
Of course one should not train to here small differences just for the case of it, but if one wonder what is possible with todays technology or if someone is into pro recording or reproduction of music... Hell, congrats to those who is satisfied with mediocre gear, this audio nevrousa thingy can be taxing in periods
On the other hand, I get goose bumps of live voices and acoustic instruments, only a good or veeery good hifi rig can give me the same/similar feeling. I play various acoustic instruments and love to hear them as I hear them in real life (or as close as possible).
"Some of the people reading this forum probably have more invested in their audio system than their car."
You bet, by a wide margin And honestly I think it´s really silly to pay more than $18000 for a car, but fully understand and respect the people that get their goose bumps in a car while I get mine in the listening sofa/chair or other place
BTW, I have bought room acoustic tools for about $3000 that´s how important good acoustics is for high res sound IMO.
"Should I go for a drive in their car and point out all the flaws it has compared to the latest Mercedes BECAUSE THOSE THINGS MATTER TO ME?"
Of course not, and nobody has done anything like that here either. But if they ask for it by saying that their -69 Volvo 240 is as comfortable, safe and fast as a -2002 V70 then you could with a polite attitude enlighten them and welcome them into this decade
(This is obviously not the same as saying that for a person, an old car can´t be the best)
"The open minded folks in this group, with limited resources (time, money, etc.) to devote to audio, should try some blind listening to see what sorts of differences matter to them and not worry about what the GoldenEars claim to hear or for that matter what I claim NOT to hear."
Absolutely, fully agree 100% amen!
BUT, no one should tell them that any two "well designed amps" with less than 0.1% THD and flat fr. from 20-20k driven below clipping/limiting sound the same, because that is a lie and nothing else. In some situations and to some people the difference may be inaudible, but that does not mean it´s not there.
/Peter
Honestly I don´t know, as all amps I have heard have had significant differences, and I think all of them have had 0.05% THD or less at 1-10W. But as suggested by me earlier, low resolving power of the speakers and bad room acoustics will make it hard to differentiate between any component upstream.
"But I have to ask: Should we train the person who cannot hear some subtle difference in what to listen for or just let them enjoy the music?"
Of course one should not train to here small differences just for the case of it, but if one wonder what is possible with todays technology or if someone is into pro recording or reproduction of music... Hell, congrats to those who is satisfied with mediocre gear, this audio nevrousa thingy can be taxing in periods
On the other hand, I get goose bumps of live voices and acoustic instruments, only a good or veeery good hifi rig can give me the same/similar feeling. I play various acoustic instruments and love to hear them as I hear them in real life (or as close as possible).
"Some of the people reading this forum probably have more invested in their audio system than their car."
You bet, by a wide margin
And honestly I think it´s really silly to pay more than $18000 for a car, but fully understand and respect the people that get their goose bumps in a car while I get mine in the listening sofa/chair or other place BTW, I have bought room acoustic tools for about $3000 that´s how important good acoustics is for high res sound IMO.
"Should I go for a drive in their car and point out all the flaws it has compared to the latest Mercedes BECAUSE THOSE THINGS MATTER TO ME?"
Of course not, and nobody has done anything like that here either. But if they ask for it by saying that their -69 Volvo 240 is as comfortable, safe and fast as a -2002 V70 then you could with a polite attitude enlighten them and welcome them into this decade
(This is obviously not the same as saying that for a person, an old car can´t be the best)
"The open minded folks in this group, with limited resources (time, money, etc.) to devote to audio, should try some blind listening to see what sorts of differences matter to them and not worry about what the GoldenEars claim to hear or for that matter what I claim NOT to hear."
Absolutely, fully agree 100% amen!
BUT, no one should tell them that any two "well designed amps" with less than 0.1% THD and flat fr. from 20-20k driven below clipping/limiting sound the same, because that is a lie and nothing else. In some situations and to some people the difference may be inaudible, but that does not mean it´s not there.
/Peter
Re: Re: Re: Eyes closed, AV amp detected!
....then perhaps, you would like to enlighten me with scientific proof to support your alleged knowledge of human hearing...?
...to add fuel to the fire, if such a difference exists, and is found to be audible given the conditions described above, then it can be measured with existing technology........otherwise, fagedaboutit...
Pan said:
....then perhaps, you would like to enlighten me with scientific proof to support your alleged knowledge of human hearing...?
...to add fuel to the fire, if such a difference exists, and is found to be audible given the conditions described above, then it can be measured with existing technology........otherwise, fagedaboutit...
UH OH...
Hi,
Is there anyone who can not hear the difference?
Seriously though, I am sometimes surprised at what some people spend to get a system that they "think" sounds right.
Sometimes the law of diminishing returns really gets nasty and than naturally the more it has cost them the more diplomacy it takes to make'm understand that it's not really neutral sounding at all.
And I'm talking half a mill here.
Tricky....
Cheers,
Hi,
Is there anyone who can not hear the difference?
Seriously though, I am sometimes surprised at what some people spend to get a system that they "think" sounds right.
Sometimes the law of diminishing returns really gets nasty and than naturally the more it has cost them the more diplomacy it takes to make'm understand that it's not really neutral sounding at all.
And I'm talking half a mill here.
Tricky....
Cheers,
Re: Re: Re: Re: Eyes closed, AV amp detected!
Nah, you´ll have to find your proof yourself Just search up a good highend rig and you will be enlightend without doubt. Honestly I can´t bleieve someone spending time on an audio board has missed out on the very audible difference between most all links in the audio chain. Do you suggest that all SACD/CDP sound the same as well? What about speakers, microphones, mic preamps, cables?
And yes, the difference between amps can be measured, didn´t you know?
/Peter
mikek said:
....then perhaps, you would like to enlighten me with scientific proof to support your alleged knowledge of human hearing...?
...to add fuel to the fire, if such a difference exists, and is found to be audible given the conditions described above, then it can be measured with existing technology........otherwise, fagedaboutit...
Nah, you´ll have to find your proof yourself
Just search up a good highend rig and you will be enlightend without doubt. Honestly I can´t bleieve someone spending time on an audio board has missed out on the very audible difference between most all links in the audio chain. Do you suggest that all SACD/CDP sound the same as well? What about speakers, microphones, mic preamps, cables?And yes, the difference between amps can be measured, didn´t you know?
/Peter
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Eyes closed, AV amp detected!
...AHA....he has no proof then!!!.......you have very eloquently missed the point altogether.....i refered specifically to audio power amps...no...'speakers sound different...the reasons are well known and measurable........same goes for some of the rest...forget the cables....and shakti stones and the rest of the *******
.......if such an audible difference in two amps. exists it can be exposed by existing THD+N procedures, if it is claimed to be audible and undetectable by THD+N, then it cannot possibly exist....period
Pan said:
Nah, you´ll have to find your proof yourself
And yes, the difference between amps can be measured, didn´t you know?
/Peter
...AHA....he has no proof then!!!...
....you have very eloquently missed the point altogether.....i refered specifically to audio power amps...no...'speakers sound different...the reasons are well known and measurable........same goes for some of the rest...forget the cables....and shakti stones and the rest of the *******.......if such an audible difference in two amps. exists it can be exposed by existing THD+N procedures, if it is claimed to be audible and undetectable by THD+N, then it cannot possibly exist....period
"you have very eloquently missed the point altogether.....i refered specifically to audio power amps..."
No I have not, but as far as I know I´m free to ask questions of interest to me on this board ?
Of course an audible difference between two components can be measured, that´s obvious.
If two components measure exactly the same under all circumstances, then there will NOT be any audible difference.
I have never said the contrary.
However, there are so many things that varies dynamically between two amps that it is (with todays methods) impossible to describe the characteristics of an amp with a simple THD+N number, and most probably any number.
We have TIM, DIM, IMD and all kinds of distortions. Also the THD does not say anything of the phase relationship between the fundamental and the harmonic. Also the relative levels of the different orders of harmonics varies betwen most all amps and especially at different levels WAY below rated power/clipping.
Some amps have mainly 2nd order with all even order (4,6,8..) higher than 3rd order and the rest of the odd order, at low levels (a couple of watts) and at higher levels the odd order harmonics can be the dominating ones.
Also an amp can have different dominating harmonics at different frequencies.
Some have falling level of the harmonics with fr. and some amps (yuck) have higher level on the high order harmonics. This is also something that can be altered at different power levels.
At first sight an audio amp seems to be a simple piece of equipment, working without any electro-mechanical complex systems in only two dimensions (normally) Voltage and Time but under work driving a reactive load things can get really complicated (not that I understand much of it). Also in some situations the threshold for detecting harmonics is waaaay low, actually as low as about 0.0001% or so for high order odd harmonics.
If you read a lot more and listen a lot more you will soon understand all of this I´m sure.
Happy listening!
/Peter
No I have not, but as far as I know I´m free to ask questions of interest to me on this board ?
Of course an audible difference between two components can be measured, that´s obvious.
If two components measure exactly the same under all circumstances, then there will NOT be any audible difference.
I have never said the contrary.
However, there are so many things that varies dynamically between two amps that it is (with todays methods) impossible to describe the characteristics of an amp with a simple THD+N number, and most probably any number.
We have TIM, DIM, IMD and all kinds of distortions. Also the THD does not say anything of the phase relationship between the fundamental and the harmonic. Also the relative levels of the different orders of harmonics varies betwen most all amps and especially at different levels WAY below rated power/clipping.
Some amps have mainly 2nd order with all even order (4,6,8..) higher than 3rd order and the rest of the odd order, at low levels (a couple of watts) and at higher levels the odd order harmonics can be the dominating ones.
Also an amp can have different dominating harmonics at different frequencies.
Some have falling level of the harmonics with fr. and some amps (yuck) have higher level on the high order harmonics. This is also something that can be altered at different power levels.
At first sight an audio amp seems to be a simple piece of equipment, working without any electro-mechanical complex systems in only two dimensions (normally) Voltage and Time but under work driving a reactive load things can get really complicated (not that I understand much of it). Also in some situations the threshold for detecting harmonics is waaaay low, actually as low as about 0.0001% or so for high order odd harmonics.
If you read a lot more and listen a lot more you will soon understand all of this I´m sure.
Happy listening!
/Peter
Pan said:
I think you really need to come up to speed about "today's methods." In fact, I think you need to come up to speed with methods of several decades ago.
Single number quantifications such as THD+N aren't measurements, they're just specs. What we're able to measure, and what we've been able to measure for decades is well beyond such simple specs.
And all of that can be rather trivially measured with "today's methods."
se
Steve,
"Single number quantifications such as THD+N aren't measurements, they're just specs. What we're able to measure, and what we've been able to measure for decades is well beyond such simple specs."
Yes I am aware of that, did I say someting else?
"And all of that can be rather trivially measured with "today's methods.""
Yes, one by one at a certain level with a specific load but there is NO method to measure an amp and by numbers or graphs tell how it sounds/perform, neither on it´s own or compared to an other amp.
Measurments are a help when developing gear, but I hope at least some of us continue to use our ears when judging audio gear that is supposed to please our brain via our ears
/Peter
"Single number quantifications such as THD+N aren't measurements, they're just specs. What we're able to measure, and what we've been able to measure for decades is well beyond such simple specs."
Yes I am aware of that, did I say someting else?
"And all of that can be rather trivially measured with "today's methods.""
Yes, one by one at a certain level with a specific load but there is NO method to measure an amp and by numbers or graphs tell how it sounds/perform, neither on it´s own or compared to an other amp.
Measurments are a help when developing gear, but I hope at least some of us continue to use our ears when judging audio gear that is supposed to please our brain via our ears
/Peter
Pan said:
..actually, i was just waiting for you to say this....there are infact no audible defects in audio power amplifiers that have been shown to be undetectable by simple THD+N....i would be most interested if you have recently found proof of such......
Pan said:
....a lot of work has gone into trying to show how these new measurement methods correlate with the listening experiance....However TIM as shown by many authors, is a red herring of gergantuan propotions...see for example, Dr. cabots paper...'comprison of non-linear distortion measurement methods'..(surely an oxymoron?!)...available free of charge below, subject to registration:
http://audioprecision.com/publications/technical_papers/index2.htm
...no defect revealed by TIM tests are undetectable by THD+N...
...as for DIM, (50 or 100), cordell has correctly indicated in his AES paper 'MOSFET power amplifier with error correction', (see relevant references thereof), that any difficiency revealed by such, can infact be equally well demonstrated by simple THD+N..
Pan said:
...if a power amp. can be demonstrated to posses THD+N, (regardless of the phase, or indeed relative quantities of each harmonic), below 0.1%, at all levels below clipping, then such an amp. will sound indistinguishable from another unit with the same THD+N specs. given the conditions described earlier.
Pan said:
...NO.
Pan said:
Your first paragraph seemed to be saying that today's methods can't offer much more than simple THD+N results. If I misread you, my apologies.
Well, "how it sounds" is always going to be a subjective evaluation.
However we're not restricted to measuring things "one by one at a certain level" etc.
More sophisticated tools such as Maximum Length Sequencing can ultimately describe the transfer function of the device in question. An ML sequence isn't just a simple periodic waveform. It's dynamic and pesudo-random and provides a stimulus in keeping with the behavior of music signals.
Measurments are a help when developing gear, but I hope at least some of us continue to use our ears when judging audio gear that is supposed to please our brain via our ears
But not everything which the brain perceives with regard to sound comes from our ears. So we're ultimately pleasing our brains via our ears and our brain.
And of course that brings us back to the context of the topic of this thread.
se
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