Guys
You're killing me. I've had the best April's fool day for years! You're actually trying to enhance your hearing using a budget sound card?! And one which resamples everything and uses not too hot ADC/DACs???
Lemme guess: your real intention is to listen to SET sound through your MP3 players, right? Or you're simply in the business of debunking myths on a budget?
LOL
peter
You're killing me. I've had the best April's fool day for years! You're actually trying to enhance your hearing using a budget sound card?! And one which resamples everything and uses not too hot ADC/DACs???
Lemme guess: your real intention is to listen to SET sound through your MP3 players, right? Or you're simply in the business of debunking myths on a budget?
LOL
peter
The null signals.
Take a null signal from one channel of one amp and a null signal from a channel of another amp and edit them into a L and R signal using a wave editor. Then you can switch between them and hear an A/B difference.
You should be able to synchronise the signals of course using the wave editor.
Take a null signal from one channel of one amp and a null signal from a channel of another amp and edit them into a L and R signal using a wave editor. Then you can switch between them and hear an A/B difference.
You should be able to synchronise the signals of course using the wave editor.
Soundblaster??!!
Hi guys,
Please don't connect a good amp to a crappy soundcard.
Will you get any conclusion?
I don't think so.
On my PC I have an SB Live soundcard and some time ago I changed the really really really crap op-amps with OPA2604s.
Of course I made a regulated +/- 15 volts PSU for them.
The PSU is inside a little box, inside the PC.
The results were dramatically better.
Now you can call me crazy.
But my humble SB Live is better than your Audigy.
But none of them is a good soundcard.
Hi guys,
Please don't connect a good amp to a crappy soundcard.
Will you get any conclusion?
I don't think so.
On my PC I have an SB Live soundcard and some time ago I changed the really really really crap op-amps with OPA2604s.
Of course I made a regulated +/- 15 volts PSU for them.
The PSU is inside a little box, inside the PC.
The results were dramatically better.
Now you can call me crazy.
But my humble SB Live is better than your Audigy.
But none of them is a good soundcard.
Re: Soundblaster??!!
Hi!
Like I said time and again before: Don't confuse bad hardware with bad drivers!
At least the Audigy series has excellent performance specs (THD for example), but really crappy drivers, that mess up even the simplest routing inside the card.
Do yourself a favour (it also works with SB Live), CLEANLY (in other words: Better to reinstall the OS) deinstall the original Creative drivers, and install the drivers from the FREE kxproject-Project (www.kxproject.com), and be amazed of what your soundcard is capable of...
Ever dreamed of totally free configurable out- and inputs? With active crossovers (freely adjustable xo frequency, freely adjustable "steepness"), parametric EQ, time delays, frequency analyzing and so on?
You got it... even Studio grade cards are not that adjustable like the creative ones together with this amazing piece of (Russian!) software. And they developed it totally without any help from Creative...
But enough spamming, I simply wanted to point out that soundcards, even those that are not in the 1000$ region, are not the worst signal source available, with careful installation...
Bye,
Arndt
PS: Good amp <-> bad soundcard...
I have mine connected to a GainClone (Visaton satellites) and a LCAudio The End Millenium (subwoofer) right now... will exchange GC for P3A next week... it sounds marvelous!
Hi!
carlosfm said:Hi guys,
Please don't connect a good amp to a crappy soundcard.
Will you get any conclusion?
I don't think so.
On my PC I have an SB Live soundcard and some time ago I changed the really really really crap op-amps with OPA2604s.
Of course I made a regulated +/- 15 volts PSU for them.
The PSU is inside a little box, inside the PC.
The results were dramatically better.
Now you can call me crazy.
But my humble SB Live is better than your Audigy.
But none of them is a good soundcard.
Like I said time and again before: Don't confuse bad hardware with bad drivers!
At least the Audigy series has excellent performance specs (THD for example), but really crappy drivers, that mess up even the simplest routing inside the card.
Do yourself a favour (it also works with SB Live), CLEANLY (in other words: Better to reinstall the OS) deinstall the original Creative drivers, and install the drivers from the FREE kxproject-Project (www.kxproject.com), and be amazed of what your soundcard is capable of...
Ever dreamed of totally free configurable out- and inputs? With active crossovers (freely adjustable xo frequency, freely adjustable "steepness"), parametric EQ, time delays, frequency analyzing and so on?
You got it... even Studio grade cards are not that adjustable like the creative ones together with this amazing piece of (Russian!) software. And they developed it totally without any help from Creative...
But enough spamming, I simply wanted to point out that soundcards, even those that are not in the 1000$ region, are not the worst signal source available, with careful installation...
Bye,
Arndt
PS: Good amp <-> bad soundcard...
I have mine connected to a GainClone (Visaton satellites) and a LCAudio The End Millenium (subwoofer) right now... will exchange GC for P3A next week... it sounds marvelous!
Yes, drivers, but...
Yes, but don't expect the drivers to make miracles.
You have a really crappy op-amp on the line-in, before the ADC.
Can you make a driver emulate an OPA627?
I think a good soundcard has to be OUTSIDE the PC, with all the electronics, PSU, connectors....
Inside the PC is only a PCI interface with a big multi-pin connector.
That's how the professional soundcards are made.
You would be amazed if you measured the "pollution" that exists inside a PC.
I have a good sound from my soundcard too, specially if I connect it to my DAC, but even with the line out (with the 2604!) it gives good sound.
But I know you could have much better, and for a test like this, you really need the best to have a conclusion.
Yes, but don't expect the drivers to make miracles.
You have a really crappy op-amp on the line-in, before the ADC.
Can you make a driver emulate an OPA627?
I think a good soundcard has to be OUTSIDE the PC, with all the electronics, PSU, connectors....
Inside the PC is only a PCI interface with a big multi-pin connector.
That's how the professional soundcards are made.
You would be amazed if you measured the "pollution" that exists inside a PC.
I have a good sound from my soundcard too, specially if I connect it to my DAC, but even with the line out (with the 2604!) it gives good sound.
But I know you could have much better, and for a test like this, you really need the best to have a conclusion.
First of all for those that don´t understand this, the amp under test MUST be loaded by a reall speaker with its complex low impedance, otherwise we (more or less) measures the low level/power stages of the amp. Amp distortion alters greatly with different loads.
Olsonsys,
do you suggest that if your speaker system has dist of 0.5% then it´s not worthwile to use CDP, pre and power amp with less than 0.5% dist?
The normal THD measurements are very "simplified" and even though the type of distortion of a speaker and power amp were of the same kind there is nothing that says that 0.5% dist (or whatever value) masks all other components distortion at or below that level.
High order harmonics can be heard as low as 0.001% or so (so I´ve read).
Also there are many drivers with 0.1% dist and some with as low as 0.01% (in part of the range).
/Peter
Olsonsys,
do you suggest that if your speaker system has dist of 0.5% then it´s not worthwile to use CDP, pre and power amp with less than 0.5% dist?
The normal THD measurements are very "simplified" and even though the type of distortion of a speaker and power amp were of the same kind there is nothing that says that 0.5% dist (or whatever value) masks all other components distortion at or below that level.
High order harmonics can be heard as low as 0.001% or so (so I´ve read
).Also there are many drivers with 0.1% dist and some with as low as 0.01% (in part of the range).
/Peter
Soundcards as tools
Folks who think soundcards sound bad might want to read this post:
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=149013#post149013
The above not only demonstrates psychological bias, but it also demonstrates sound cards might not be as awful as many audiophiles think they are. The soundcard used in the above example was a $300 Turtle Beach Fiji which was one of the best in its day but you can buy a better soundcard now for $150. Of the differences heard in the A/B comparison, I suspect many of them may have been due to the cartridge rather than the soundcard and A/D - D/A process.
Folks who think soundcards sound bad might want to read this post:
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=149013#post149013
The above not only demonstrates psychological bias, but it also demonstrates sound cards might not be as awful as many audiophiles think they are. The soundcard used in the above example was a $300 Turtle Beach Fiji which was one of the best in its day but you can buy a better soundcard now for $150. Of the differences heard in the A/B comparison, I suspect many of them may have been due to the cartridge rather than the soundcard and A/D - D/A process.
Null tests
I also agree recording null results can be useful. The null test, IMHO, is most powerful doing direct comparisons. For example, you want to compare two modifications to an amplifier so you run the null test, record the results (either directly or a spectrum analysis), make the modification, repeat the test, and compare the results.
You can also null one channel against the other. This is useful to match two amplifier channels more closely than you usually get given component tolerances, etc. You'll find it's an extremely sensitive test. For those of you who think ultra accurate channel matching helps imaging, this might be useful (although I'll argue that even "matched" speakers in a symmetrical room will produce much greater channel-to-channel errors than virtually any amplifier).
But channel-to-channel nulling is also useful for determining the effect of amp modifications. Start with the two channels identical and measure the null between them. Then make your modification in only one channel and repeat the null test. If you cannot measure/hear a significant difference it's extremely likely the modification will not be audible.
If you can measure/hear a difference you can then null each channel against the input to determine which is more accurate and/or subjectively evaluate what the nulls sound like. In theory, the "less offensive" sounding null may also correlate with the better sounding version of the amplifier. This, for example, allows you to hear the difference between mainly 2nd harmonic versus mainly 3rd harmonic distortion.
I also agree recording null results can be useful. The null test, IMHO, is most powerful doing direct comparisons. For example, you want to compare two modifications to an amplifier so you run the null test, record the results (either directly or a spectrum analysis), make the modification, repeat the test, and compare the results.
You can also null one channel against the other. This is useful to match two amplifier channels more closely than you usually get given component tolerances, etc. You'll find it's an extremely sensitive test. For those of you who think ultra accurate channel matching helps imaging, this might be useful (although I'll argue that even "matched" speakers in a symmetrical room will produce much greater channel-to-channel errors than virtually any amplifier).
But channel-to-channel nulling is also useful for determining the effect of amp modifications. Start with the two channels identical and measure the null between them. Then make your modification in only one channel and repeat the null test. If you cannot measure/hear a significant difference it's extremely likely the modification will not be audible.
If you can measure/hear a difference you can then null each channel against the input to determine which is more accurate and/or subjectively evaluate what the nulls sound like. In theory, the "less offensive" sounding null may also correlate with the better sounding version of the amplifier. This, for example, allows you to hear the difference between mainly 2nd harmonic versus mainly 3rd harmonic distortion.
So technical...
I never though this thread would get so technical.
We are even talking about soundcards, wav files...
Is it really necessary?
Is it so difficult for a blind man to distinguish between a cheap Onkyo AV amp and a Bryston stereo amp?
nw, please, don't compress those wav files to mp3!
I never though this thread would get so technical.
We are even talking about soundcards, wav files...
Is it really necessary?
Is it so difficult for a blind man to distinguish between a cheap Onkyo AV amp and a Bryston stereo amp?
nw, please, don't compress those wav files to mp3!
Buy an Onkyo AV amp!!!
SY,
Just sell your Bryston and buy an Onkyo AV amp.
You'll make some money with that deal.
With that money, you'll buy an SB Audigy!
Then send me the wav files of the two amps.
Oh, no!!!!
They're too big!
Just compress them in 64kb joint-stereo MP3 and post them!
Oh, joy, I think we will not be able to distinguish the two amps!
SY,
Just sell your Bryston and buy an Onkyo AV amp.
You'll make some money with that deal.
With that money, you'll buy an SB Audigy!
Then send me the wav files of the two amps.
Oh, no!!!!
They're too big!
Just compress them in 64kb joint-stereo MP3 and post them!
Oh, joy, I think we will not be able to distinguish the two amps!
Re: Buy an Onkyo AV amp!!!
Neither SY, nor I, nor anyone else in this thread has said the Bryston is the EQUAL of the Onkyo in every way. We've only said they're hard to tell apart in a *blind* listening test if you keep them within their power limits.
Even a small Bryston can no doubt do a much better job driving low impedance loads and/or playing at high volumes than the Onkyo. So that alone might be reason to own the Bryston.
The point is all the "night and day" differences between a well respected power amp and a lowly A/V receiver--perceptions of deeper soundstages, cleaner highs, tighter bass, blacker backgrounds, increased slam, etc.--seem to somehow disappear along with the knowledge of which amp you're listening to. You may not believe it, but if you haven't tried it, how do you know?
carlosfm said:
Neither SY, nor I, nor anyone else in this thread has said the Bryston is the EQUAL of the Onkyo in every way. We've only said they're hard to tell apart in a *blind* listening test if you keep them within their power limits.
Even a small Bryston can no doubt do a much better job driving low impedance loads and/or playing at high volumes than the Onkyo. So that alone might be reason to own the Bryston.
The point is all the "night and day" differences between a well respected power amp and a lowly A/V receiver--perceptions of deeper soundstages, cleaner highs, tighter bass, blacker backgrounds, increased slam, etc.--seem to somehow disappear along with the knowledge of which amp you're listening to. You may not believe it, but if you haven't tried it, how do you know?
Re: closed eyes
And yes, SY, I agree reliability/longevity is another key difference. I've mentioned it before in this thread. There's NO question the Bryston is built to a much higher standard than the Onkyo or any other mainstream receiver.
I agree, I do the same thing sometimes. But if you know what you're listening to, you're still biased by that knowledge, even with your eyes closed.carlosfm said:When I close my eyes listening to music, I feel I can hear much better.
How about that?
And yes, SY, I agree reliability/longevity is another key difference. I've mentioned it before in this thread. There's NO question the Bryston is built to a much higher standard than the Onkyo or any other mainstream receiver.
Been doing it for years.
We noticed this while we were in college. We've been doing lots of listening late evenings and stretching it into late nights.
I think when the eyes loose vision the ears get sharper to make up for it. Blind people have keener hearing than people with vision. It's just a bodily function which I think can be improved upon by practise. Blind people have to do it just to get by. We need to work hard at it!
We noticed this while we were in college. We've been doing lots of listening late evenings and stretching it into late nights.
I think when the eyes loose vision the ears get sharper to make up for it. Blind people have keener hearing than people with vision. It's just a bodily function which I think can be improved upon by practise. Blind people have to do it just to get by. We need to work hard at it!
Sy, You Must Be As Deaf As A Fencepost...
I did just that comparison two weekends back - a high quality Onkyo AV amplifier and a prototype amplifier playing into a pair of big mixdown monitors - all Dynaudio drivers - double 12", double 4", single 1".
Geeze, even after a big lunch, much beer and much schnapps, the differences were clearly and immediately discernable.
Both amplifiers were run at mid power and level matched.
The prototype amp was clean throughout, and the Onkyo was dirty through the mids, was unclear in the highs, and the bass had no balls.
In short, there was no comparison in objective listening mode, or subjective listening mode, and the conclusion was that whilst on its own, the Onkyo was okish, it did not hold a candle to a better amp whatsoever.
Maybe it is time to retire that Bryston to the garage too.
Eric.
SY said:
I did just that comparison two weekends back - a high quality Onkyo AV amplifier and a prototype amplifier playing into a pair of big mixdown monitors - all Dynaudio drivers - double 12", double 4", single 1".
Geeze, even after a big lunch, much beer and much schnapps, the differences were clearly and immediately discernable.
Both amplifiers were run at mid power and level matched.
The prototype amp was clean throughout, and the Onkyo was dirty through the mids, was unclear in the highs, and the bass had no balls.
In short, there was no comparison in objective listening mode, or subjective listening mode, and the conclusion was that whilst on its own, the Onkyo was okish, it did not hold a candle to a better amp whatsoever.
Maybe it is time to retire that Bryston to the garage too.
Eric.
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