How can we talk about building a neutral sounding amplifier, when every part being used imposes it's own sonic signature on the sound. So we are dealing here not only with a original recording, but also with a coloration of all the parts used to reproduce that recording. We wil never be able to create perfectly transparent amplifier. We can only try to combine the parts the best we can to achieve a certain sonic effect. If the amp is used for music reproduction, why not choose the parts which actually sound like real music?
When listening to an amp you are also listening to interconnects and speaker cables. I changed one resistor in a feedback loop of my amp and I had to use different cables from PS to achieve so called more "neutral" sound again. But how much neutral is it? Who is there to judge, when speakers and othe cables are interfeering?
I'm noticing that mechanical construction and resonances control in a chassiss itself, make sometimes much bigger difference than the whole electronic part of the amp. How can you measure that and what defines your choices? I just changed the insulating pad under IC chip and the sound changed.
Since I started production of my own amps, I'm in a position where I can built exactly same amps with only minor change to be tested. Even a short wiring (2") from PS connector to a chip influences sound in a big way.It actually makes an amp or breakes it. And the choices are many, even when talking about very simple design.
The only real judgement comes from a listener and he tells you what he likes. He doesn't have any measuring equipment, except for a set of two ears and they came in a quite a big variety
When listening to an amp you are also listening to interconnects and speaker cables. I changed one resistor in a feedback loop of my amp and I had to use different cables from PS to achieve so called more "neutral" sound again. But how much neutral is it? Who is there to judge, when speakers and othe cables are interfeering?
I'm noticing that mechanical construction and resonances control in a chassiss itself, make sometimes much bigger difference than the whole electronic part of the amp. How can you measure that and what defines your choices? I just changed the insulating pad under IC chip and the sound changed.
Since I started production of my own amps, I'm in a position where I can built exactly same amps with only minor change to be tested. Even a short wiring (2") from PS connector to a chip influences sound in a big way.It actually makes an amp or breakes it. And the choices are many, even when talking about very simple design.
The only real judgement comes from a listener and he tells you what he likes. He doesn't have any measuring equipment, except for a set of two ears and they came in a quite a big variety
New words?
"unobtainium"
I love this word. Who coined it ?
This whole businesss of audio is so hazy that the pursuit of the 'ultimate sound' will last as long as humans will on Mother Earth.
No one will ever agree to any one set of criteria - after all we are Humans - and we always agree to disagree.
Very clearly seen on this thread !
Great - it will keep every one on this forum occupied with audio improvements , busy with the business of achieving the nebulous end all through this material life.
Just remember to keep your sense of humour and respect other people's point of view - you don't have to agree to it.
It keeps us away from all the other crap in life.
Keep having fun.
Cheers.
"unobtainium"
I love this word. Who coined it ?
This whole businesss of audio is so hazy that the pursuit of the 'ultimate sound' will last as long as humans will on Mother Earth.
No one will ever agree to any one set of criteria - after all we are Humans - and we always agree to disagree.
Very clearly seen on this thread !
Great - it will keep every one on this forum occupied with audio improvements , busy with the business of achieving the nebulous end all through this material life.
Just remember to keep your sense of humour and respect other people's point of view - you don't have to agree to it.
It keeps us away from all the other crap in life.
Keep having fun.
Cheers.
He is starting to catch on........
That is what makes this an art. There is a constant balance between tonal balance and resolution. The more attention to the design and efforts to improve an amplifier, the more these effects become noticable. The increased neutrality and resolution of an amplifier modification or new design reveals other short comings in preamp, source and cabling. Often the reduced masking reveals other colorations and problems that can start to annoy you that go unnoticed with an amplifier of less resolution. It is kind of like peeling an onion. There always seems to be another layer. What comes with this is hearing further into the music. The sense of timing, pitch, subtle details that differentiate really good musicians from average. One of the things I really notice is pitch and small changes in it as singers search for the note. Getting further into the music is the whole point of all this. It is not about how loud a system will play, how deep the bass goes, or how detailed it sounds. It's about the subtle aspects of music and how close the system brings you to what the musicians are doing.
Their choices in phrasing. The tempos they pick. The mirroring of vocal lines by instrument parts. The emotion, intent, skills, and technique of the artist. If the system doesn't approach these things in the music, you mind as well turn it of and go do something else.
Peter Daniel said:
That is what makes this an art. There is a constant balance between tonal balance and resolution. The more attention to the design and efforts to improve an amplifier, the more these effects become noticable. The increased neutrality and resolution of an amplifier modification or new design reveals other short comings in preamp, source and cabling. Often the reduced masking reveals other colorations and problems that can start to annoy you that go unnoticed with an amplifier of less resolution. It is kind of like peeling an onion. There always seems to be another layer. What comes with this is hearing further into the music. The sense of timing, pitch, subtle details that differentiate really good musicians from average. One of the things I really notice is pitch and small changes in it as singers search for the note. Getting further into the music is the whole point of all this. It is not about how loud a system will play, how deep the bass goes, or how detailed it sounds. It's about the subtle aspects of music and how close the system brings you to what the musicians are doing.
Their choices in phrasing. The tempos they pick. The mirroring of vocal lines by instrument parts. The emotion, intent, skills, and technique of the artist. If the system doesn't approach these things in the music, you mind as well turn it of and go do something else.
Re: He is starting to catch on........
When I'm beginning to sense the emotions of the performers, I know I'm on a right path with my design.
I'm sorry, but I never noticed it with an average $300 asian integrated. And I have quite a nice collection of them from a by-gone era, but mostly because of the looks.
Fred Dieckmann said:
When I'm beginning to sense the emotions of the performers, I know I'm on a right path with my design.
I'm sorry, but I never noticed it with an average $300 asian integrated. And I have quite a nice collection of them from a by-gone era, but mostly because of the looks.
In Tears.
Hi,
Very well put, Fred.
The choice of components for a given design is a very delicate process.
Indeed, as you said so eloquently, it is like peeling away layers of colourations masking the music.
While I know of no single component that is absolutely transparent to the source, some do come very close.
Some designers use brand X components all thoughout and that inevitably gives a sonic flavour to the product, a signature they would call it.
To my ears that is still a colouration and is better avoided even though lots of people lke certain flavours more than others.
The design goal one should set for one self IMHO should be one of utter transparency.
Often when I have people try out some of the I/C and speakercables I designed years ago they say they don't like them.
I know why...they are too transparent for their own good and all of a sudden these people more clearly hear the shortcomings of their own system.
It often takes them a while to come to terms with that...no one likes to admit their own deficiency.
Cheers,
Hi,
Very well put, Fred.
The choice of components for a given design is a very delicate process.
Indeed, as you said so eloquently, it is like peeling away layers of colourations masking the music.
While I know of no single component that is absolutely transparent to the source, some do come very close.
Some designers use brand X components all thoughout and that inevitably gives a sonic flavour to the product, a signature they would call it.
To my ears that is still a colouration and is better avoided even though lots of people lke certain flavours more than others.
The design goal one should set for one self IMHO should be one of utter transparency.
Often when I have people try out some of the I/C and speakercables I designed years ago they say they don't like them.
I know why...they are too transparent for their own good and all of a sudden these people more clearly hear the shortcomings of their own system.
It often takes them a while to come to terms with that...no one likes to admit their own deficiency.
Cheers,
Re: Re: He is starting to catch on........
Y'ever listened to the TEAC AH-500? I had a chance to play with one for a while a couple years ago. I found it quite impressive. Put it up against our $3,000 integrated and it held up quite well. Doesn't have gobs of power and it won't double as an arc welder, but within its own context, a very good amp in my opinion.
se
Peter Daniel said:I'm sorry, but I never noticed it with an average $300 asian integrated. And I have quite a nice collection of them from a by-gone era, but mostly because of the looks.
Y'ever listened to the TEAC AH-500? I had a chance to play with one for a while a couple years ago. I found it quite impressive. Put it up against our $3,000 integrated and it held up quite well. Doesn't have gobs of power and it won't double as an arc welder, but within its own context, a very good amp in my opinion.
se
Les uns et les outres...
After being out for a while...and reading now the evolution of this thread...one thing is clear to me.
The times haven't changed much ,from the time when David Hafler propose this test of our days...nobody point any technical reason for the nulling test to be not a proof of amp linearity (input=output)...nobody but me and Nw_phile fell that it was a powerfull tool in acessing amplifier quality...
So it emerges that are 2 scholls of thougt here
1-only with two known menbers me and Nw_phile
that belive that audio is a aplication of cience and that good design and some tests can can help in acessing the fidelity of the amp...
2-the other, the vast mayority of members that belive that listening is all...that more important that the nuling test, is the opinion of some one, that from other part of planet claim that capacitor A sound better that capacitor B witout any cientifical proof...and that a amplifier can make a role of Mozart and make better the original sound...
So my friend Nw_phile...now we are two!!!
Alone but happy!
Cheers
After being out for a while...and reading now the evolution of this thread...one thing is clear to me.
The times haven't changed much ,from the time when David Hafler propose this test of our days...nobody point any technical reason for the nulling test to be not a proof of amp linearity (input=output)...nobody but me and Nw_phile fell that it was a powerfull tool in acessing amplifier quality...
So it emerges that are 2 scholls of thougt here
1-only with two known menbers me and Nw_phile
that belive that audio is a aplication of cience and that good design and some tests can can help in acessing the fidelity of the amp...2-the other, the vast mayority of members that belive that listening is all...that more important that the nuling test, is the opinion of some one, that from other part of planet claim that capacitor A sound better that capacitor B witout any cientifical proof...and that a amplifier can make a role of Mozart and make better the original sound...
So my friend Nw_phile...now we are two!!!
Alone but happy!
Cheers
OT: He double blinded me with science....
I do get the reference.... I too miss the cleverly plaintive tunes of Thomas Dolby ( and who can forget the modulated wails of Peter Frampton's guitar?) But that line 'she blinded me with science' goes substantially further back. It was a line from an early Archibald Leach British movie offered by Cary after his pickup line was shot down by the soon to be love interest (Claudette Colbert???)
I've always assumed it is Cockney Rhyming Slang, but can find no reference. Any help from our pedants on the line's origin?
I do get the reference.... I too miss the cleverly plaintive tunes of Thomas Dolby ( and who can forget the modulated wails of Peter Frampton's guitar?) But that line 'she blinded me with science' goes substantially further back. It was a line from an early Archibald Leach British movie offered by Cary after his pickup line was shot down by the soon to be love interest (Claudette Colbert???)
I've always assumed it is Cockney Rhyming Slang, but can find no reference. Any help from our pedants on the line's origin?
Sounds Like What ? - Who Cares So Long As It Is Good.
Hi Frank and Phred,
I've been at my Fathers place eating lunch, drinking Schnapps on my birthday and whooping it up and having a good time, and I fully agree with what I have read so far of what you both say.
Regards, Eric / - Some people understand, other idiots don't.
Hi Frank and Phred,
I've been at my Fathers place eating lunch, drinking Schnapps on my birthday and whooping it up and having a good time, and I fully agree with what I have read so far of what you both say.
Regards, Eric / - Some people understand, other idiots don't.
- Status
- Not open for further replies.