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Old 2nd April 2003, 05:52 AM   #601
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Guys

You're killing me. I've had the best April's fool day for years! You're actually trying to enhance your hearing using a budget sound card?! And one which resamples everything and uses not too hot ADC/DACs???
Lemme guess: your real intention is to listen to SET sound through your MP3 players, right? Or you're simply in the business of debunking myths on a budget?



LOL

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Old 2nd April 2003, 06:01 AM   #602
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Default The null signals.

Quote:
but doesn't let me reproduce my own A/B from the .wav file
Take a null signal from one channel of one amp and a null signal from a channel of another amp and edit them into a L and R signal using a wave editor. Then you can switch between them and hear an A/B difference.
You should be able to synchronise the signals of course using the wave editor.
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Old 2nd April 2003, 09:45 AM   #603
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Talking Soundblaster??!!

Hi guys,

Please don't connect a good amp to a crappy soundcard.
Will you get any conclusion?
I don't think so.
On my PC I have an SB Live soundcard and some time ago I changed the really really really crap op-amps with OPA2604s.
Of course I made a regulated +/- 15 volts PSU for them.
The PSU is inside a little box, inside the PC.
The results were dramatically better.
Now you can call me crazy.
But my humble SB Live is better than your Audigy.
But none of them is a good soundcard.
 
Old 2nd April 2003, 09:55 AM   #604
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Default Re: Soundblaster??!!

Hi!

Quote:
Originally posted by carlosfm
Hi guys,

Please don't connect a good amp to a crappy soundcard.
Will you get any conclusion?
I don't think so.
On my PC I have an SB Live soundcard and some time ago I changed the really really really crap op-amps with OPA2604s.
Of course I made a regulated +/- 15 volts PSU for them.
The PSU is inside a little box, inside the PC.
The results were dramatically better.
Now you can call me crazy.
But my humble SB Live is better than your Audigy.
But none of them is a good soundcard.
Like I said time and again before: Don't confuse bad hardware with bad drivers!

At least the Audigy series has excellent performance specs (THD for example), but really crappy drivers, that mess up even the simplest routing inside the card.

Do yourself a favour (it also works with SB Live), CLEANLY (in other words: Better to reinstall the OS) deinstall the original Creative drivers, and install the drivers from the FREE kxproject-Project (www.kxproject.com), and be amazed of what your soundcard is capable of...

Ever dreamed of totally free configurable out- and inputs? With active crossovers (freely adjustable xo frequency, freely adjustable "steepness"), parametric EQ, time delays, frequency analyzing and so on?

You got it... even Studio grade cards are not that adjustable like the creative ones together with this amazing piece of (Russian!) software. And they developed it totally without any help from Creative...

But enough spamming, I simply wanted to point out that soundcards, even those that are not in the 1000$ region, are not the worst signal source available, with careful installation...

Bye,

Arndt

PS: Good amp <-> bad soundcard...

I have mine connected to a GainClone (Visaton satellites) and a LCAudio The End Millenium (subwoofer) right now... will exchange GC for P3A next week... it sounds marvelous!
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Old 2nd April 2003, 10:10 AM   #605
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Red face Yes, drivers, but...

Yes, but don't expect the drivers to make miracles.
You have a really crappy op-amp on the line-in, before the ADC.
Can you make a driver emulate an OPA627?
I think a good soundcard has to be OUTSIDE the PC, with all the electronics, PSU, connectors....
Inside the PC is only a PCI interface with a big multi-pin connector.
That's how the professional soundcards are made.
You would be amazed if you measured the "pollution" that exists inside a PC.
I have a good sound from my soundcard too, specially if I connect it to my DAC, but even with the line out (with the 2604!) it gives good sound.
But I know you could have much better, and for a test like this, you really need the best to have a conclusion.
 
Old 2nd April 2003, 10:34 AM   #606
Pan is offline Pan  Sweden
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First of all for those that donīt understand this, the amp under test MUST be loaded by a reall speaker with its complex low impedance, otherwise we (more or less) measures the low level/power stages of the amp. Amp distortion alters greatly with different loads.

Olsonsys,

do you suggest that if your speaker system has dist of 0.5% then itīs not worthwile to use CDP, pre and power amp with less than 0.5% dist?

The normal THD measurements are very "simplified" and even though the type of distortion of a speaker and power amp were of the same kind there is nothing that says that 0.5% dist (or whatever value) masks all other components distortion at or below that level.

High order harmonics can be heard as low as 0.001% or so (so Iīve read ).

Also there are many drivers with 0.1% dist and some with as low as 0.01% (in part of the range).

/Peter
 
Old 2nd April 2003, 02:34 PM   #607
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Default Soundcards as tools

Folks who think soundcards sound bad might want to read this post:

http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/showt...013#post149013

The above not only demonstrates psychological bias, but it also demonstrates sound cards might not be as awful as many audiophiles think they are. The soundcard used in the above example was a $300 Turtle Beach Fiji which was one of the best in its day but you can buy a better soundcard now for $150. Of the differences heard in the A/B comparison, I suspect many of them may have been due to the cartridge rather than the soundcard and A/D - D/A process.
 
Old 2nd April 2003, 02:45 PM   #608
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Default Null tests

I also agree recording null results can be useful. The null test, IMHO, is most powerful doing direct comparisons. For example, you want to compare two modifications to an amplifier so you run the null test, record the results (either directly or a spectrum analysis), make the modification, repeat the test, and compare the results.

You can also null one channel against the other. This is useful to match two amplifier channels more closely than you usually get given component tolerances, etc. You'll find it's an extremely sensitive test. For those of you who think ultra accurate channel matching helps imaging, this might be useful (although I'll argue that even "matched" speakers in a symmetrical room will produce much greater channel-to-channel errors than virtually any amplifier).

But channel-to-channel nulling is also useful for determining the effect of amp modifications. Start with the two channels identical and measure the null between them. Then make your modification in only one channel and repeat the null test. If you cannot measure/hear a significant difference it's extremely likely the modification will not be audible.

If you can measure/hear a difference you can then null each channel against the input to determine which is more accurate and/or subjectively evaluate what the nulls sound like. In theory, the "less offensive" sounding null may also correlate with the better sounding version of the amplifier. This, for example, allows you to hear the difference between mainly 2nd harmonic versus mainly 3rd harmonic distortion.
 
Old 2nd April 2003, 02:59 PM   #609
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Talking So technical...

I never though this thread would get so technical.
We are even talking about soundcards, wav files...
Is it really necessary?
Is it so difficult for a blind man to distinguish between a cheap Onkyo AV amp and a Bryston stereo amp?
nw, please, don't compress those wav files to mp3!
 
Old 2nd April 2003, 03:05 PM   #610
SY is offline SY  United States
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Quote:
Is it so difficult for a blind man to distinguish between a cheap Onkyo AV amp and a Bryston stereo amp?
To date, yes, it has been difficult. Impossible, even. Assuming, of course, that both amps are run within their power/load limitations.

To anticipate a question, yes, I own a Bryston.
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