Blind Listening Tests & Amplifiers - Page 54 - diyAudio
Go Back   Home > Forums > Amplifiers > Solid State

Solid State Talk all about solid state amplification.

Please consider donating to help us continue to serve you.

Ads on/off / Custom Title / More PMs / More album space / Advanced printing & mass image saving
Closed Thread
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old 28th March 2003, 08:12 PM   #531
Rob M is offline Rob M  United States
diyAudio Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: San Diego, CA
Default It's not just audio!

I just had a conversation with a colleague who'd been to the east coast for a conference, and it sounded very familiar. She works on classroom discourse (how students and teachers talk to each other, and how that affects education) and at this conference there was a huge fight between two camps, call them the quants and the quals. The quants record and transcribe student/teacher interactions, count the number of times relevant linguistic things happen, and do statistical analyses to show what's going on. This is in contrast to the quals, who instead work from in depth case studies and their own experience as teachers.

The quals say the quants are missing the point: language is much too rich and complex to be reduced to a few numbers. The quants on the other hand argue that the quals can always come up with anecdotal evidence to "prove" whatever they want.

Apparently the fights between these camps are getting pretty ugly (by scientific standards). The field used to be all quals (it's only recently that computers have gotten powerful enough for quantitative linguistics to be possible) and they resent the quants coming in and challenging their authority. And on their side, the quants enjoy being iconoclasts and sometimes fail to recognize the depth of wisdom and experience that the quals bring to the table.

Any of this remind you of anyone?
 
Old 28th March 2003, 08:58 PM   #532
The one and only
 
Nelson Pass's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2001
Reminds me of the wine industry.

 
Old 28th March 2003, 09:15 PM   #533
diyAudio Senior Member
 
fdegrove's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Belgium
Default WINE WHINERS.

Hi,

Quote:
Reminds me of the wine industry.
Oh, no........not you as well?

Cheers,...and I mean it,
__________________
Frank
 
Old 28th March 2003, 11:35 PM   #534
diyAudio Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: Northwest
Default Switches and capacitors.

Quote:
Originally posted by SY
Inside a sealed box, there's a switch (very high quality) and two pairs of high pass filters, with the corner frequency being rather low (like 10 Hz). One pair is made from cooking-grade components, steel leads, low price, too easy to get and pay for to be any good, but measurably OK. Call it "Radio Shack," if you like. The other pair is super-duper fashion-audio parts, preferably hand-made by Japanese monks...
That would be an interesting experiment! Of course, some might want to take apart the box so it would have be "tamper proof"

And do you think some might suggest the switch, no matter how high quality, would mask their difficulty in determining which switch positions are which? This certainly happens in the ABX comparisons that use an ABX switcher (although they're very high quality relays instead of switches).

You may also run into widespread refusal to even take the challenge among the true GoldenEars. Again, same thing happens with blind equipment or cable challenges. Your method, however, has the advantage they can't blame time pressure or "testing stress" if they accept the challenge and don't do well.
 
Old 28th March 2003, 11:43 PM   #535
diyAudio Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: Northwest
Default Re: It's not just audio!

Quote:
Originally posted by Rob M
The quants record and transcribe student/teacher interactions, count the number of times relevant linguistic things happen, and do statistical analyses to show what's going on. This is in contrast to the quals, who instead work from in depth case studies and their own experience as teachers....

Any of this remind you of anyone?
It depends on what you're comparing. If you're talking about analytical measurement with instruments versus listening, I agree with you. If you're talking about sighted (biased) listening versus blind (unbiased) listening, It's not very analogous. Both of the latter are subjective in nature, one is just under controlled conditions that remove the psychological bias.

For the wine lovers here, it's no different than blind wine tasting which is still entirely subjective. That's certainly different from sending the wine off to a chemistry lab for analysis and basing your conclusions on those results.

All that said, blind listening obviously cannot replace sighted listening. It's only another tool to be added to the audiophile's toolbox. My main point here has been to try and convey it can be a very eye and ear opening tool--even used just once.
 
Old 29th March 2003, 12:29 AM   #536
SY is offline SY  United States
diyAudio Moderator
 
SY's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: Chicagoland
Blog Entries: 1
Default Re: Switches and capacitors.

Quote:
Originally posted by nw_avphile

That would be an interesting experiment! Of course, some might want to take apart the box so it would have be "tamper proof"
In theory, yes, one has to take all kinds of precautions. But this is a simple test, and hopefully, the people participating are honest and (my own criterion) are people who are actually amateurs, in the original sense of the word. Elementary tamper-resistant measures should be sufficient; if I were sending it to Uri Geller, I might be considerably more elaborate. And I'd ask The Amazing Randi for advice (one more plug: everybody, RUN out and buy a copy of Randi's Amazing book, "Flim-Flam"). I will also avoid sending the box to people who are likely to try measurements- that's a cheat that I'm not sure how to overcome without using at least two active buffers and some means of thermal stabilization.


Quote:

And do you think some might suggest the switch, no matter how high quality, would mask their difficulty in determining which switch positions are which?
No doubt, especially if the test gives a null result. But if these "huge" differences are smaller than the degradation of a pair of high-quality switch contacts, anyone who is convincable will be convinced. Believe me, I have personal experience in that regard.


Quote:

You may also run into widespread refusal to even take the challenge among the true GoldenEars. Again, same thing happens with blind equipment or cable challenges. Your method, however, has the advantage they can't blame time pressure or "testing stress" if they accept the challenge and don't do well.
Several people here who claim to be able to hear these differences have volunteered. I bet Peter will, too. I sincerely admire them for their open-minded approach and their willingness to put their beliefs to a fair test.
__________________
You might be screaming "No, no, no" and all they hear is "Who wants cake?" Let me tell you something: They all do. They all want cake.- Wilford Brimley
 
Old 29th March 2003, 12:58 AM   #537
jcarr is offline jcarr  United States
diyAudio Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: Tokyo, Japan
>if we took the same amplifier circuitry and "hid" it in four different high-end large well known chassis and let a group of GoldenEars audition them under whatever non-blind conditions they wanted, I have no doubt they'd all hear plenty of differences between them. I'd further suggest their opinions would align around the external appearance of the amplifier.<

As a manufacturer, I normally use the reverse procedure, which is to put a variety of circuitry into the same chassis designs.

jonathan carr
__________________
http://www.lyraconnoisseur.com/, http://www.lyraaudio.com
 
Old 29th March 2003, 01:42 AM   #538
diyAudio Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: Northwest
Default Re: Re: Switches and capacitors.

Quote:
Originally posted by SY
Several people here who claim to be able to hear these differences have volunteered. I bet Peter will, too. I sincerely admire them for their open-minded approach and their willingness to put their beliefs to a fair test.
Sounds like something worth doing then! I'll see what I might have to contribute to the cause on the high-end side (no, I won't send him my Wondercaps fdegrove!).
 
Old 29th March 2003, 01:46 AM   #539
diyAudio Senior Member
 
fdegrove's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Belgium
Default GLOOPS...

Hi,

Quote:
(no, I won't send him my Wondercaps fdegrove!).
Haven't changed them yet for something less wondercrappy?
__________________
Frank
 
Old 29th March 2003, 02:35 AM   #540
diyAudio Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: Northwest
Default Re: GLOOPS...

Quote:
Originally posted by fdegrove
Haven't changed them yet for something less wondercrappy?
They're still in that amp (I think?), but it's had a lonely life sitting in the corner for a while now. It needs a good home...

Anyone want to buy a 220w/ch Borbely/nw_avphile mosfet hybrid cheap? It's a very musical amplifier, stunning 3-dimensional deep and wide soundstage, ethereal highs, tube-like midrange, enough bass slam to make your neighbors envious, it sounds far better than 90% of power amps out there!
 

Closed Thread


Hide this!Advertise here!
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off



New To Site? Need Help?

All times are GMT. The time now is 11:58 AM.


vBulletin Optimisation provided by vB Optimise (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2014 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.
Copyright 1999-2014 diyAudio

Content Relevant URLs by vBSEO 3.3.2