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Old 27th March 2003, 01:41 AM   #491
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Default AMEN.

Hi,

Quote:
You can stop here and agree to disagree or you can learn something. Your choice.
Which can just as well apply to the entire thread IMO.

Cheers,
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Old 27th March 2003, 01:43 AM   #492
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Default Re: AMEN.

Quote:
Originally posted by fdegrove
Which can just as well apply to the entire thread IMO.
It's certainly grown into quite a monster.

se
 
Old 27th March 2003, 01:49 AM   #493
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Default Not again ......

Quote:
And Frank says .... Get yourself a cheap transisssstor radio and be happy... or you could get your ears checked...while you're at it, have your brainfunctions checked too, I start to worry.
We're back to the sandpit again.

Putting forward obtuse arguments, bordering upon insulting is counterproductive to the discussion and does nothing but diminish people's respect for the respective author.

This comment applies equally to both sides of the camp.

Lets keep sensible, please

mark
 
Old 27th March 2003, 08:24 AM   #494
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Default Re: Giving it a rest

Quote:
Originally posted by nw_avphile

I hope some of you got something out of the blind/null discussions and will perhaps be encouraged to try some blind and/or null testing of your own. I'm going to take fdegrove's advice and give it a rest for now.

Have fun everyone.
Here's something I tried and you could try also...
Take an amplifier that works well without NFB (it's usually tube amp) and have a listen. Install switchable NFB loop in it (let's say -just 6 dB). Have somebody switch NFB in and out (and adjust volume) while you are listening to some piano music. Listen if there is any difference
 
Old 27th March 2003, 09:20 AM   #495
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I have moved the stuff on Electron Propagation and NFB here as it was a side issue to the thread topic.

I think I got everything, but if something is missing please yell out!
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Old 27th March 2003, 11:28 AM   #496
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Default Another Way ?.

Hi Al,
How about copying those posts to a new thread, and insert links into posts in the the original thread stating that this sub- discussion has been moved (copied), and thereby allowing the original thread to continue unedited, and continuous.
Any errant posters would be soon redirected to the relevant thread discussion.

Eric.
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Old 27th March 2003, 03:38 PM   #497
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Talking You call that blind test?!

Hi, am I missing something here?
If you want someone to do a blind test on two amps, he shouldn't know what is playing.
That man had a Bryston amp, and he knew you were comparing that to an Onkyo AV receiver.
Of course his mind was biased into saying he didn't like what he was hearing.
I really think that the Onkyo is crap, and if you really think that it really compares to any Bryston amp, my god!
Another thing:
Are you comparing power amps, integrated amps or what?
I can show you my Nad Receiver 7000 (not AV!) playing with it's original crappy JRC op-amps in the pre seccion, and then with OPA2604 from Burr Brown.
If you can't hear the difference, you can try some of these:

http://store2.yimg.com/I/safetycentral_1724_5943551

If it doen't work, then ask for medical help.
Or do you think that crappy Onkyo has OPA627s?
Ha!
It's people like you that muck up the Hi-Fi business.
You're the type of salesman that today is selling hi-fi, and tomorrow is selling socks.
 
Old 27th March 2003, 05:30 PM   #498
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Default Re: You call that blind test?!

First of all, thanks pinkmouse for doing some house cleaning here to keep this thread a bit more on-topic.

Second, it looks like we have a new contributor... carlosfm. Thanks for joining this controversial debate. It would appear you haven't read much of the thread so I'll try to bring you up to speed a bit

Quote:
Originally posted by carlosfm
Hi, am I missing something here?
If you want someone to do a blind test on two amps, he shouldn't know what is playing. That man had a Bryston amp, and he knew you were comparing that to an Onkyo AV receiver.
Of course his mind was biased into saying he didn't like what he was hearing.
The vast majority of blind tests are done with full knowledge of the components involved. Most of the fancy ones are done with an "ABX" comparator that allows the listener to select A (the Bryston), B (The Onkyo) or X (A or B chosen at random). They know what A and B are. They're welcome to listen to each as much as they want. When they choose X, they only have to decide if it sounds more like A or B. Sounds easy, right? Well Tom Nousaine has documented ABX tests for a number of things from cables to CD players to amplifiers and the results are really interesting! He shattered all sorts of audiophile "beliefs" with his published articles on the subject.

My Onkyo/Bryston test didn't use an ABX comparator, because some audiophiles argue that putting a few relay contacts in the signal path somehow masks all the other differences you're trying to hear. So I swapped cables.

The main purpose behind the sort of blind test we're discussing here is to determine if any difference can be heard between two components . If there IS a difference, then the listener can decide which one they like better if they want. But the main point of the test is to establish if they can even reliably hear a difference.


Quote:
Originally posted by carlosfm
I really think that the Onkyo is crap, and if you really think that it really compares to any Bryston amp, my god! .
First of all, just to be clear, I'm NOT suggesting the Onkyo is the equal of the Bryston in every way. The Bryston can certainly play louder, drive lower impedance loads better, etc. But keeping within the limits of both amps, in this particular high-end system, with this particular golden eared musician listening, he couldn't reliably hear any difference and admitted as such.

Lots of audiophiles, including the guy who owned the Bryston, thought the Onkyo should sound like crap. They thought the same thing about the cheap Carver amp that went up against two $10,000+ monoblock tube amps in the Carver/Stereophile challenge. They thought the same thing about the cheap Yamaha integrated that went up against two $15,000 monoblock amps in the Sunshine Audio challenge. In all those cases, "golden eared" audiophiles, listening on very high-end, high resolution systems, could NOT hear a statistically significant difference (that is their guesses were close to being random) between the cheap mainstream component and the much more expensive high-end component in blind tests.

How do you explain the above? Don't you think the editors of Stereophile (they participated in the Carver blind test) would have done just about anything to not lose the challenge? The same is true for the owner of a very high end dealer--Sunshine Audio in Florida. None of these people have come up with any good excuses as to why they couldn't hear a difference.

Quote:
Originally posted by carlosfm
Another thing:
Are you comparing power amps, integrated amps or what?
Amplifiers of any kind. The Onkyo/Bryston test should have favored the Bryston even more as we were not just comparing the power amps, but the whole signal chain from the output of the CD player to the input to the speakers. So it was also the Bryston preamp up against the internal preamp in the receiver.

Quote:
Originally posted by carlosfm
I can show you my Nad Receiver 7000 (not AV!) playing with it's original crappy JRC op-amps in the pre seccion, and then with OPA2604 from Burr Brown.
I'm not saying your op-amps don't make a difference, but it doesn't sound like you have done a blind test either (which in this case would be hard to do)?

Basically you spend a lot of time, effort, perhaps money, etc. to swap out op-amps. So right there your mind is already biased towards wanting to hear something in exchange for what you've put into the project. Further, you're biased by what others have said about the op-amps (which is likely what made you buy OPA2604's in the first place). So when you solder them in and listen to them, you're STRONGLY BIASED towards hearing some kind of difference. This psychological bias has been very well documented. It's just human nature. It's why they conduct serious wine tastings with the labels hidden. See this post for further details on the psychological effects I'm talking about:

http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/showt...164#post150164

Here are some references to much of what's talked about above:

Nousaine, Thomas, "Wired Wisdom: The Great Chicago Cable Caper", Sound and Vision, Vol. 11 No. 3 (1995)

Nousaine, Thomas, "Flying Blind: The Case Against Long Term Testing", Audio, pp. 26-30, Vol. 81 No. 3 (March 1997)

Nousaine, Thomas, "Can You Trust Your Ears?", Stereo Review, pp. 53-55, Vol. 62 No. 8 (August 1997)

Toole, Floyd E., "Listening Tests - Turning Opinion Into Fact", Journal of the Audio Engineering Society, Vol. 30, No. 6, June 1982, pp. 431-445.

Toole, Floyd E., and Olive, Sean E., "Hearing is Believing vs. Believing is Hearing: Blind vs. Sighted Tests, and Other Interesting Things", 97th AES Convention (San Francisco, Nov. 10-13, 1994), [3893 (H-5], 20 pages.


The other half of this thread involves subtracting the input of any amplifier from the output while it's playing real music driving real speakers. This is known as null difference testing and what you're left with is ANY AND ALL distortion, errors, etc. produced by the amplifier. This includes phase error, TIM, frequency response problems, THD, IM, errors caused by the NFB, etc, etc. Anything that causes the signal driving the speakers to deviate from the input signal shows up in this test.

So I ask you this question: If you perform the null difference test on your stock NAD and get an "error signature" playing your favorite music driving your favorite speakers. Then you swap out the op-amps and repeat the test. If there's no difference, doesn't that mean both op-amps should sound the same?

The whole point of this thread, which even a few of the devoted golden eared folks have admitted, is there's an unavoidable psychological bias when you do regular non-blind listening.

Quote:
Originally posted by carlosfm
It's people like you that muck up the Hi-Fi business.
You're the type of salesman that today is selling hi-fi, and tomorrow is selling socks.
I'm not selling anything... I used to sell high-end audio and would have been on your side, but some blind listening tests, and further research, changed all that. Now I'm only encouraging folks to listen in a way that removes psychological bias, and pointing out a kind of testing that's very useful when working on amplifiers.

If you read through this rather lengthy thread, you'll find there's a lot of objective evidence supporting what I've said above and very very little objective evidence against it. Mostly the golden ear types have resorted to insults, changing the subject or very weak technical arguments that have easily been refuted. What's being discussed here undermines some of what many audiophiles believe in so it's hardly surprising some folks get really defensive--just like you did in your post (i.e. suggesting I need medical help, etc.).

But you're welcome to read through the thread and make up your mind. I'm not twisting anyone's arm, just trying to keep things factual and objective and bring an alternative perspective to high-end audio.
 
Old 27th March 2003, 05:42 PM   #499
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Default The null in op amps world...

If people try a null test betwen the Ne5534 and the new fashionable op amps...they will be surprised...

In my CD Sony XA50 ES i have changed the opa 2132 for the NE...with superlatif resuslts...

Just the oposite of the other people do...

Im not realy a folower of fashion!!
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Old 27th March 2003, 08:31 PM   #500
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Default Re: Another Way ?.

Quote:
Originally posted by mrfeedback
Hi Al,
How about copying those posts to a new thread, and insert links into posts in the the original thread stating that this sub- discussion has been moved (copied), and thereby allowing the original thread to continue unedited, and continuous.
Any errant posters would be soon redirected to the relevant thread discussion.

Eric.
Hi Eric

It's on my mission list, but sorting the thread initially took 45min, and I ran out of time as I had to go to work!

I will endevour to do it in the next couple of days...
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