Re: Half Valid Testing.
Yup, you can do that - use both channels and a storage oscilloscope. Megabuck distortion analysers can do that for you, sometimes even automatically.
But you are playing the PSU and PSRR way too much. It is easy to test both channles in an amp that doesn't have completely separate chassis (and many of amps, especially better ones, will). Some of them are one channel only anyway (monoblocks).
If you stay within limits there is no crosstalk issues to speak of in a well designed amp. Only when you get close to the limit (or push it) and one channel starts to clip you may start to see residuals starting to show at the other output.
As far as speaker working as generators and affecting the other channel - give me a break. I'm an engineer, remember. There is no way that back EMF from the speaker will make it into the PSU and show through to the other channel. To do that it would have to bypas PSRR TWICE (once for the channel that is working, and then this supposed ripple on the PSU has to pass PSRR of the other channel before gets propagated to the signal). Even world's worst PSRR numer becomes quite big when it gets squared.
Interesting how innovative subjectivists become when it comes to finding novel ways of inventing distortion mechanisms. Pitty they never bother to follow it through all the way and do it SCIENTIFICALLY. Here is your chance - how much back EMF do you get typically while speaker is played ? How much of that will make it through the output stage back to the power supply rail ? And finally, how much of that ripple will make it through the other channel ? Any bets that will be more than 90dB down than signal played, therefore inaudible, unplayable by speaker in hand and way below ambient noise ?
But it seems to me that you just look for an excuse - I didn't really expect anything else, anyway.
What about CRUX of the matter - you keep skipping the question of how can you hear residuals that
1) are way too low to hear from your normal sitting position even if played on their own
2) are 30 to 40 dB down below noise, burried in the room ambience/resonances and speaker distortion
3) not being played at all in the first place (no driver will be able to reproduce anything of sort 70-80dB down from the main signal)
Anyway, feel free to keep deluding yourselves. You know well in the back of your mind that one day you will be put on the spot and you will fail. Just as all the other golden ears did with Peter Walker, Carver, Nouisanne, etc. etc. Remember that 10K US$ prize ? It is still there for all of you overconfident experts. Should be easy, eh ?
Once the safety of knowing what is playing is taken away, the reality will bite quite hard.
Over and out,
Bratislav
mrfeedback said:
Yup, you can do that - use both channels and a storage oscilloscope. Megabuck distortion analysers can do that for you, sometimes even automatically.
But you are playing the PSU and PSRR way too much. It is easy to test both channles in an amp that doesn't have completely separate chassis (and many of amps, especially better ones, will). Some of them are one channel only anyway (monoblocks).
If you stay within limits there is no crosstalk issues to speak of in a well designed amp. Only when you get close to the limit (or push it) and one channel starts to clip you may start to see residuals starting to show at the other output.
As far as speaker working as generators and affecting the other channel - give me a break. I'm an engineer, remember. There is no way that back EMF from the speaker will make it into the PSU and show through to the other channel. To do that it would have to bypas PSRR TWICE (once for the channel that is working, and then this supposed ripple on the PSU has to pass PSRR of the other channel before gets propagated to the signal). Even world's worst PSRR numer becomes quite big when it gets squared.
Interesting how innovative subjectivists become when it comes to finding novel ways of inventing distortion mechanisms. Pitty they never bother to follow it through all the way and do it SCIENTIFICALLY. Here is your chance - how much back EMF do you get typically while speaker is played ? How much of that will make it through the output stage back to the power supply rail ? And finally, how much of that ripple will make it through the other channel ? Any bets that will be more than 90dB down than signal played, therefore inaudible, unplayable by speaker in hand and way below ambient noise ?
But it seems to me that you just look for an excuse - I didn't really expect anything else, anyway.
What about CRUX of the matter - you keep skipping the question of how can you hear residuals that
1) are way too low to hear from your normal sitting position even if played on their own
2) are 30 to 40 dB down below noise, burried in the room ambience/resonances and speaker distortion
3) not being played at all in the first place (no driver will be able to reproduce anything of sort 70-80dB down from the main signal)
Anyway, feel free to keep deluding yourselves. You know well in the back of your mind that one day you will be put on the spot and you will fail. Just as all the other golden ears did with Peter Walker, Carver, Nouisanne, etc. etc. Remember that 10K US$ prize ? It is still there for all of you overconfident experts. Should be easy, eh ?
Once the safety of knowing what is playing is taken away, the reality will bite quite hard.
Over and out,
Bratislav
Re: Nope, Still Not Valid, Try Again.
Now this tops it ! "Changes at the input terminal due to loading of the previous stage" ?
Surely you must be kidding ?
Can you explain how (in this universe) can amplifier under test affect the preamp ? Please just specify the mechanism. Say, the output imedance of my LS-7 is about 20 ohms or so. It drives 22K of Krell's input impedance, in parallel to about 470pF (plus few more pF in the cable). WHICH parameter exactly will change when amp starts to play, or you change speaker, or volume goes up or down ? And how much will that change affect the input signal ? In dBs, microvolts, whatever.
Give some numbers for a change, not more balooney theories.
You know, flux of neutrinos and cosmic rays passing the amp in question will change something too. The change in Earth's magnetic field due to Solar wind will surely affect the sound of my friend's Apogees.
The question remains CAN YOU HEAR IT ?
Using crappy ears, even crappier speakers in even more crappier room.
Geez, I'm wasting my time here.
mrfeedback said:
Now this tops it ! "Changes at the input terminal due to loading of the previous stage" ?
Surely you must be kidding ?
Can you explain how (in this universe) can amplifier under test affect the preamp ? Please just specify the mechanism. Say, the output imedance of my LS-7 is about 20 ohms or so. It drives 22K of Krell's input impedance, in parallel to about 470pF (plus few more pF in the cable). WHICH parameter exactly will change when amp starts to play, or you change speaker, or volume goes up or down ? And how much will that change affect the input signal ? In dBs, microvolts, whatever.
Give some numbers for a change, not more balooney theories.
You know, flux of neutrinos and cosmic rays passing the amp in question will change something too. The change in Earth's magnetic field due to Solar wind will surely affect the sound of my friend's Apogees.
The question remains CAN YOU HEAR IT ?
Using crappy ears, even crappier speakers in even more crappier room.
Geez, I'm wasting my time here.
I Know What I Hear.
Have any of you guys done a spectral analysis of the residual noise ?.
This will tell the differences that some can hear that is not revealed when treating the noise as a simple level.
If you have I am sure that we are very interested to hear the outcome.
I can go down to the local dealer and just about any amplifier there will quote 20-20kHz and 0.01%, but they all sound slightly different.
The likes of Frank and I are interested in a qualitive analysis of the nature of these differences, and are not pure subjectivists, and this has been stated previously.
Frank and I do not accept the assertion that all 20-20kHz 0.01% amplifiers sound the same, because in our experience they do not.
We agree that although audible, the differences are small, and that it takes fine measurement and analysis to differentiate these on paper.
We are talking about real world production amplifiers, and not ideal models.
It is over to you guys with the 'megabuck' measuring instruments
to show graphs of the residual noises in typical amplifiers including spectral and phase analysis.
Eric.
Have any of you guys done a spectral analysis of the residual noise ?.
This will tell the differences that some can hear that is not revealed when treating the noise as a simple level.
If you have I am sure that we are very interested to hear the outcome.
I can go down to the local dealer and just about any amplifier there will quote 20-20kHz and 0.01%, but they all sound slightly different.
The likes of Frank and I are interested in a qualitive analysis of the nature of these differences, and are not pure subjectivists, and this has been stated previously.
Frank and I do not accept the assertion that all 20-20kHz 0.01% amplifiers sound the same, because in our experience they do not.
We agree that although audible, the differences are small, and that it takes fine measurement and analysis to differentiate these on paper.
We are talking about real world production amplifiers, and not ideal models.
It is over to you guys with the 'megabuck' measuring instruments
to show graphs of the residual noises in typical amplifiers including spectral and phase analysis.
Eric.
Re: I Know What I Hear.
No, mate. It is up to YOU to prove assertion that you can hear the difference among well designed amps working within specs.
And that proof involves blind testing, like it or not. Hic Rhodos hic salta is the saying. Put up or shut up. Have someone change amps, you guess them every time. All the time.
THAT is the proof.
Everything else is a pathetic exuse, lie, BS, self delusion, imagination, chest thumping, foot stomping bragging of an adolescent audiophool.
There is zero evidence that you would understand anything, even if world's best enginners supplied you with residuals' spectral analysis and phase graphs all the way coated with 100s and 1000s. You'd come back with another improbable pseudoscientific crap theory as an excuse.
Your attitude of BS artist actually suits you rather well.
mrfeedback said:
No, mate. It is up to YOU to prove assertion that you can hear the difference among well designed amps working within specs.
And that proof involves blind testing, like it or not. Hic Rhodos hic salta is the saying. Put up or shut up. Have someone change amps, you guess them every time. All the time.
THAT is the proof.
Everything else is a pathetic exuse, lie, BS, self delusion, imagination, chest thumping, foot stomping bragging of an adolescent audiophool.
There is zero evidence that you would understand anything, even if world's best enginners supplied you with residuals' spectral analysis and phase graphs all the way coated with 100s and 1000s. You'd come back with another improbable pseudoscientific crap theory as an excuse.
Your attitude of BS artist actually suits you rather well.
Re: Re: I Know What I Hear.
Why anybody has to prove anything? Why not say: shut up and enjoy?
If you so much into proving things, how would you go about proving that most amps sound the same to everybody? Are you up to the task? If not, then everything you say is a "pathetic exuse, lie, BS, self delusion, imagination, chest thumping, foot stomping bragging of an adolescent audiophool" as well
Bratislav said:
Why anybody has to prove anything? Why not say: shut up and enjoy?
If you so much into proving things, how would you go about proving that most amps sound the same to everybody? Are you up to the task? If not, then everything you say is a "pathetic exuse, lie, BS, self delusion, imagination, chest thumping, foot stomping bragging of an adolescent audiophool" as well
Re: Re: Re: I Know What I Hear.
I would offer thing called FACTS. Heard about it ?
Claim : all amps under specified condition sound the same.
Proof required - listening under controlled conditions. Like Peter Walker, Bob Carver etc. did.
FACT - golden ears couldn't tell the difference. Me neither. None of my friends. Or enemies.
Claim - you can hear different feet or resistor being changed in the amp.
Proof required - as above.
FACT - missing.
See the difference ?
Probably not. It requires understaning of most basic proinciples of engineering. See under "detection".
Peter Daniel said:
Why anybody has to prove anything? Why not say: enjoy and shut up?
If you so much into proving things, how would you go about proving that most amps sound the same to everybody? Are you up to the task? If not, then everything you say is a "pathetic exuse, lie, BS, self delusion, imagination, chest thumping, foot stomping bragging of an adolescent audiophool" as well
I would offer thing called FACTS. Heard about it ?
Claim : all amps under specified condition sound the same.
Proof required - listening under controlled conditions. Like Peter Walker, Bob Carver etc. did.
FACT - golden ears couldn't tell the difference. Me neither. None of my friends. Or enemies.
Claim - you can hear different feet or resistor being changed in the amp.
Proof required - as above.
FACT - missing.
See the difference ?
Probably not. It requires understaning of most basic proinciples of engineering. See under "detection".
Re: Re: Re: Re: I Know What I Hear.
I guess you don't read small print well. Did you noticed the word "everybody"? I don't think it will ever be proven to everybody, so your discussion is really pointless.
mikek said:
....that has been proved countless times.....the evidence is scattered throughout this thread..
I guess you don't read small print well. Did you noticed the word "everybody"? I don't think it will ever be proven to everybody, so your discussion is really pointless.
Re: Re: Re: Re: I Know What I Hear.
Mybe the golden ears were not that golden after all?
If your approach to music is only dependant on testing, collecting facts and the need to prove something, than I feel sorry for you.
If I feel a need to change a resistor or different feet, it's only because I can't enjoy the music the way I usually do, and I don't give a crap about your requirement to prove that it actually makes a difference.
I also abandoned that thread long ago, since I didn't see a point in arguing about things that don't need to be proven for any reason. I just wanted some late night excitement, that's why I made those couple posts
And mrfeedback used to joke about those things as well one time: http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=3427&highlight=lou+reed
Bratislav said:
Mybe the golden ears were not that golden after all?
If your approach to music is only dependant on testing, collecting facts and the need to prove something, than I feel sorry for you.
If I feel a need to change a resistor or different feet, it's only because I can't enjoy the music the way I usually do, and I don't give a crap about your requirement to prove that it actually makes a difference.
I also abandoned that thread long ago, since I didn't see a point in arguing about things that don't need to be proven for any reason. I just wanted some late night excitement, that's why I made those couple posts
And mrfeedback used to joke about those things as well one time
: http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=3427&highlight=lou+reed
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: I Know What I Hear.
But you are not right in your argument. This particular matter is very easy to prove beyond any doubts. It's up to individuals to accept it or not.
Proving that every person cannot hear the difference between most amps is not possible IMO.
mikek said:
You are right in one important respect.....there are some who still believe the sun goes round the earth, because the vatican has made no formal recantation of this claim over the past 600 odd years.........cest la vie..
But you are not right in your argument. This particular matter is very easy to prove beyond any doubts. It's up to individuals to accept it or not.
Proving that every person cannot hear the difference between most amps is not possible IMO.
I have to admit, I did not read all the posts on this thread but by looking at what I've read so far I conclude that there are 2 sides.
Those who can proove that different audiophile parts/amps do not sound different, therefore are not wasting there time and money, on testing wich part sounds better.
And those who enjoy paying gigantic prices for parts/amps, even knowing that practicaly it does not audibly change the sound, but it makes them feel better and they still think their system sounds better.
"Who cares if its proven that the change is not audible, I fell better about it!"
If you have money and buying audiophile caps, resistors and $10K amps makes you feel better, thats awsome. You found a easy (but expensive) way to total happiness. I am happy for you.
Well,
I can enjoy my equipment if it sounds good, no matter what there is inside it or how much I paid for it. While listening to music, I can forget what there is inside my amp.
I've also noticed music sounds better on days when I'm joyful, on sad days, music sounds flat and annoying. Well, my audiophile mod, is a nice cheap and easy mood change.
------------------------------
One thing I cannot understand is people degrading other people because they think they are right on subjects where basicly noone is right. This should be intolerated.
That was simply my 2 cents
Btw, anyone here even ever read this?
http://sound.westhost.com/cables.htm
Those who can proove that different audiophile parts/amps do not sound different, therefore are not wasting there time and money, on testing wich part sounds better.
And those who enjoy paying gigantic prices for parts/amps, even knowing that practicaly it does not audibly change the sound, but it makes them feel better and they still think their system sounds better.
"Who cares if its proven that the change is not audible, I fell better about it!"
If you have money and buying audiophile caps, resistors and $10K amps makes you feel better, thats awsome. You found a easy (but expensive) way to total happiness. I am happy for you.
Well,
I can enjoy my equipment if it sounds good, no matter what there is inside it or how much I paid for it. While listening to music, I can forget what there is inside my amp.
I've also noticed music sounds better on days when I'm joyful, on sad days, music sounds flat and annoying. Well, my audiophile mod, is a nice cheap and easy mood change.
------------------------------
One thing I cannot understand is people degrading other people because they think they are right on subjects where basicly noone is right. This should be intolerated.
That was simply my 2 cents
Btw, anyone here even ever read this?
http://sound.westhost.com/cables.htm
>>.....on the contrary, that is precisely what blind tests acheive....no doubts.....niente...nada....period<<
I guess you still didn't get it. I mean all people. How can you practically carry it out? I am sure that there are exceptional cases that can hear differences we can't even dream about and only testing all the people on Earth would prove beyond doubt that you are right in your delusion.
I guess you still didn't get it. I mean all people. How can you practically carry it out? I am sure that there are exceptional cases that can hear differences we can't even dream about and only testing all the people on Earth would prove beyond doubt that you are right in your delusion.
Bratislav wrote;
"What about CRUX of the matter - you keep skipping the question of how can you hear residuals that
1) are way too low to hear from your normal sitting position even if played on their own
2) are 30 to 40 dB down below noise, burried in the room ambience/resonances and speaker distortion
3) not being played at all in the first place (no driver will be able to reproduce anything of sort 70-80dB down from the main signal)"
1, what makes you think that the residuals on they own and then added/mixed on/with the main signal would be the same thing?
2, What makes you think electronics distortion would be masked by speaker and room errors?
3, What makes you think a driver refuse to react to small signals?
Room resonances are mostly a problem in the sub 500Hz region, what makes you think this would "burrie" distortions from an amp in the 1k - 20k region? Having the speakers well out from walls gives a timegap where the ears EASILY can separate the direct signal from the reflections/reverberation.
Also, are you aware of the audible differences and masking effects between different harmonic and dissonant partials?
It seems not as you believe that any distortion would be masked by some other distortion or noise by the same or higher magnitude,, this assumption is totally wrong.
/Peter
"What about CRUX of the matter - you keep skipping the question of how can you hear residuals that
1) are way too low to hear from your normal sitting position even if played on their own
2) are 30 to 40 dB down below noise, burried in the room ambience/resonances and speaker distortion
3) not being played at all in the first place (no driver will be able to reproduce anything of sort 70-80dB down from the main signal)"
1, what makes you think that the residuals on they own and then added/mixed on/with the main signal would be the same thing?
2, What makes you think electronics distortion would be masked by speaker and room errors?
3, What makes you think a driver refuse to react to small signals?
Room resonances are mostly a problem in the sub 500Hz region, what makes you think this would "burrie" distortions from an amp in the 1k - 20k region? Having the speakers well out from walls gives a timegap where the ears EASILY can separate the direct signal from the reflections/reverberation.
Also, are you aware of the audible differences and masking effects between different harmonic and dissonant partials?
It seems not as you believe that any distortion would be masked by some other distortion or noise by the same or higher magnitude,, this assumption is totally wrong.
/Peter
"Those who can proove that different audiophile parts/amps do not sound different, therefore are not wasting there time and money, on testing wich part sounds better."
This is impossible to proove since it is a false statement and idea, it´s really that simple.
"And those who enjoy paying gigantic prices for parts/amps, even knowing that practicaly it does not audibly change the sound, but it makes them feel better and they still think their system sounds better."
What makes you think good parts need to be expensive???
"I've also noticed music sounds better on days when I'm joyful, on sad days, music sounds flat and annoying. Well, my audiophile mod, is a nice cheap and easy mood change. "
This is my experience as well, making blind tests on very small differences a bad day is a bad idea.
This is why simple blind tests may not be such a valid test method as some thinks to believe.. meaning that another day the outcome may have been different. Also it´s wise to listen to a known set up changing only one component, instead of listening at someone elses set up.
/Peter
This is impossible to proove since it is a false statement and idea, it´s really that simple.
"And those who enjoy paying gigantic prices for parts/amps, even knowing that practicaly it does not audibly change the sound, but it makes them feel better and they still think their system sounds better."
What makes you think good parts need to be expensive???
"I've also noticed music sounds better on days when I'm joyful, on sad days, music sounds flat and annoying. Well, my audiophile mod, is a nice cheap and easy mood change. "
This is my experience as well, making blind tests on very small differences a bad day is a bad idea.
This is why simple blind tests may not be such a valid test method as some thinks to believe.. meaning that another day the outcome may have been different. Also it´s wise to listen to a known set up changing only one component, instead of listening at someone elses set up.
/Peter
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