Blind Listening Tests & Amplifiers - Page 41 - diyAudio
Go Back   Home > Forums > Amplifiers > Solid State

Solid State Talk all about solid state amplification.

Please consider donating to help us continue to serve you.

Ads on/off / Custom Title / More PMs / More album space / Advanced printing & mass image saving
Closed Thread
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old 26th March 2003, 01:09 AM   #401
diyAudio Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: Northwest
Default Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: just one word plastics

Quote:
Originally posted by Peter Daniel
Well, he didn't say it exactly, but he implied that the differences I hear are not real and I'm building my amps the way I do, only because it makes me feel good and they sound better only to me. The truth is, I'm building them that way, because that's the only way I can built them (and sometimes it makes me feel bad that I don't have his perception of reality) and they sound better that way to everybody who is listening to them. He didn't listen to them so he can't know that and I didn't take the DBT so even I don't know if the differences in sounds I hear are real or not so how can he know? Unless he has some ESP capabilities, which I doubt.
Well sorry if I implied anything about your amplifier in particular. I was only trying to say that some folks here accuse me of being the one who's wrong, when there's no objective evidence to support their position (and in fact a ton of objective evidence against it).

You're correct, I haven't heard your ampifier. It may well sound different that other amplifiers you've had in your system. Until you run a decent blind test, however, you'll never know the truth.
 
Old 26th March 2003, 01:20 AM   #402
diyAudio Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: Northwest
Default Re: Re: NOPE...

Quote:
Originally posted by mikek
...do'nt get me wrong, if there is something you are attempting to teach me here, i am more than willing to learn , but please be gentle.... ....i need to be taken from first principals....
Be careful with fdegrove, all he did last night was throw out ridiculous assertions, apparently in an attempt to get a rise out of me... that resulted it me asking if he was baiting me. I quote from post #297:

Quote:
Are you just baiting me or do you really not understand the concept of:

No, rest assured I, and others are just baiting you. We do that for laughs.]
So it's a bit hard to take him seriously.
 
Old 26th March 2003, 01:21 AM   #403
diyAudio Member
 
Steve Eddy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Sacramento, CA
Quote:
Originally posted by mikek
Hi Traderbam......i have obviously been less than crystal clear....i am saying in a nutshell getting signal through an amp. without bending it, and with minimum, (read inaudible) noise is the single most impotant criterion for such a device....
That's all well and good from a purely objective, emotionless point of view.

However, the sole purpose of the amplifier is ultimately to serve the subjective, emotional human beings at the end of the chain. And their single most important criteria is their own subjective satisfaction. Which may be at odds with an amplifier designed by wholly objective criteria.

You seem to be saying that objective criteria is the only valid criteria to use when it comes to designing an amplifier. If that is what you're saying, then I'm afraid I will have to disagree. The equipment serves us, not the other way around.

se
 
Old 26th March 2003, 01:23 AM   #404
diyAudio Senior Member
 
fdegrove's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Belgium
Default Realitivism.

Hi,

Quote:
So it's a bit hard to take him seriously.
No more than you seem to have lost your sense of humour somewhere in the course of life it would seem...

Ciao,
__________________
Frank
 
Old 26th March 2003, 01:26 AM   #405
diyAudio Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: Northwest
Quote:
Originally posted by Steve Eddy
However, the sole purpose of the amplifier is ultimately to serve the subjective, emotional human beings at the end of the chain. And their single most important criteria is their own subjective satisfaction. Which may be at odds with an amplifier designed by wholly objective criteria.

You seem to be saying that objective criteria is the only valid criteria to use when it comes to designing an amplifier. If that is what you're saying, then I'm afraid I will have to disagree. The equipment serves us, not the other way around.
We have to make a distinction here, as I and others tried to do a few hundred messages ago, between those who want accurate amplifiers and those who consider amplifiers more as "art" and prefer ones that add their own "euphonic distortions" to the signal.

Obviously, if you start comparing amplifiers that have obvious distortions, they're going to sound different. Blind testing is still useful to see what sorts of distortions you most prefer, and null testing MIGHT be useful to a designer to help quantify exactly how the amplifier is distorting the signal, but otherwise, things get subjective fast when you WANT distortion.

But this still doesn't explain how a $250 receiver can sound as good as multi thousand dollar Bryston separates (both of which measure fairly well).
 
Old 26th March 2003, 01:36 AM   #406
diyAudio Senior Member
 
fdegrove's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Belgium
Default HIT.

Hi,

Quote:
We have to make a distinction here, as I and others tried to do a few hundred messages ago, between those who want accurate amplifiers and those who consider amplifiers more as "art" and prefer ones that add their own "euphonic distortions" to the signal.
If you must put labels on people than put me into the objectivist category...
I want an accurate amp, you want one that measures to what you think measures correctly...and there's where you're wrong.

Circumventing problems never has been a solution, and all I've seen so far is mister Lazy at work, all possible excuses are good not to investigate further.

You are only fooling #1,
__________________
Frank
 
Old 26th March 2003, 01:45 AM   #407
diyAudio Member
 
Steve Eddy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Sacramento, CA
Quote:
Originally posted by nw_avphile
We have to make a distinction here, as I and others tried to do a few hundred messages ago, between those who want accurate amplifiers and those who consider amplifiers more as "art" and prefer ones that add their own "euphonic distortions" to the signal.
I understand that. I was simply responding to mikek's post where he seemed to be implying that objective perfection is the only legitimate criteria for amplifier design.

Quote:
But this still doesn't explain how a $250 receiver can sound as good as multi thousand dollar Bryston separates (both of which measure fairly well).
Well, we haven't really established that it does. As has been stated previously, a null result to a listening test simply leaves you with a null result, not any hard proof one way or the other.

se
 
Old 26th March 2003, 02:00 AM   #408
diyAudio Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: Northwest
Quote:
Originally posted by Steve Eddy
Well, we haven't really established that it does. As has been stated previously, a null result to a listening test simply leaves you with a null result, not any hard proof one way or the other.
Hmmm... we might need to clarify things here. Some of the earlier language was confusing. Planet10 tried to clear things up in post 57:


Originally posted by Steve Eddy
Yes. That's called a null result.


I wanted to mention it because i am sure there are some reading who would erroneously conclude that if you heard no differences in this test, that there were no differences

Blind testing is used all the time to determine if there's a detectable difference between two things. If the person(s) involved cannot detect a difference, it is assumed there is no detectable difference.

You can argue the Onkyo/Bryston test wasn't double blind or especially rigorous, but that doesn't make it invalid. If you're saying that no blind test can prove that two amplifiers sound the same, please explain yourself further?
 
Old 26th March 2003, 02:08 AM   #409
diyAudio Senior Member
 
fdegrove's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Belgium
Default ME IS A SPORT...

Hi,

Quote:
I didn't say anything specifically about negative feedback in amplifiers because there was simply nothing to add.
Case closed.

Quote:
Oh, and I'm still waiting to hear your reasoning behind 100kHz being a "limited frequency response" in the context of audio.
Hmmm...recta linea or linea recta? I doubt it.
Still, the main problem of xformers is bandwidth/power so I guess you're of the hook..for a while.


Cheers,
__________________
Frank
 
Old 26th March 2003, 02:17 AM   #410
diyAudio Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: Northwest
Default Re: ERRONYMUS BOSCH.

Quote:
Originally posted by fdegrove
Thanks to compounded small errors we miss out on fidelity which is why we should consider the error in every single component, heck, even an inch of wire or a silly fuseholder for all I care.
fdegrove: Given the above, what are your thoughts then on all the cheap ops-amps (most running huge amounts of NFB), $0.01 resistors, $0.05 capacitors, cheap connectors, cheap plain old copper wire in all the interconnects, cheap power supplies, and yes, cheap fuse holders that were present at the studio? Some estimate, in terms of electronics, the entire playback chain is as little as 1% of the total signal chain the audio has been through on many recordings. By any standard, the playback electronics are in the minority.

95+% of the recordings out there are made with mainstream studio equipment which is made with very mainstream parts and little regard for esoteric audiophile approved components and construction techniques. Wouldn't all these substandard parts destroy the audio signal beyond repair? Wouldn't those high NFB op-amps have introduced lots of cumulative "timing errors"?

How much difference can one more cheap part make when the signal has already been through dozens or even hundreds of them? At the least, wouldn't the "substandard parts" mask anything we can do with our tiny piece of the pie?

I'm genuinely curious about your honest thoughts on this so please try to focus on the questions above rather than attacking me, ignoring the question or changing the subject as you've done in the past when I've asked you questions.
 

Closed Thread


Hide this!Advertise here!
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off



New To Site? Need Help?

All times are GMT. The time now is 03:40 AM.


vBulletin Optimisation provided by vB Optimise (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2014 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.
Copyright 1999-2014 diyAudio

Content Relevant URLs by vBSEO 3.3.2