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Old 25th March 2003, 09:44 PM   #371
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Default ASSUMPTIONS, ASSUMPTIONS...

Hi,

Quote:
I'm willing to let the subjectivists spend all the money they want on their own systems. But it bothers me when they fly in the face of all the objective evidence and try to convince everyone just because they hear something, under heavy psychological bias, it must be real.
Ah, so we are subjectivists...you automatically assume we do not measure our stuff, you're wrong.

What objective evidence are you talking about?Now that bothers me...

Who is trying to convince who here? You certainly haven't convinced me and quite likely you never will.

If we, and together with us other people hear, repeatedly, differences we have no means of measuring does that mean the differences aren't there?

Heavy psychological bias? Biased towards what exactly?

Yes, it is real.

Naturally it makes life a lot easier dismissing audible yet unmeasurable differences claiming that if they can't be measured it therefore follows they're just not there.
I find that approach errrr, rather medieval.

I find this kind of attitude rather disturbing and if people keep that up nothing will ever change, well, not for the better anyway.

Fred mentioned tempco in resistors, he could no doubt add a myriad of other factors that influence sound...never, ever forget that music is dynamic and very complex in its content.

Oh, and capacitors are an even more difficult model to control in case you haven't noticed.

Note that these are just passive components, active components are nothing more than a complex series of passive brought to live under tension.

If you want to, and I hasten to add I don't know if it's the case in the U.S. of A, you can actually get a lot of help of the universities if you're a company...you'd be surprised to learn it doesn't cost you a dime.

Anyway, you seem to have your rigid beliefs...me I learned to be a tad more flexible over the years.

Cheers,
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Old 25th March 2003, 10:04 PM   #372
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Default Re: just one word plastics

Quote:
Originally posted by Fred Dieckmann
There is too much correlation between the best sounding resistors and the fact that they tend to have the lost temperature coefficient. I just don't believe this is a coincidence, way too much experience listening to resistors and amplifiers and preamplifiers with the best resistors.
I don't think that correlation is terribly meaningful.

I've only noticed such a correlation among those who are already of the belief that the best objective performance gives the best subjective result. So they're always going after resistors with the lowest tempco, dielectrics with the lowest dielectric constant, conductors with the highest purity and fewest crystals, etc.
And invariably whenever they can come up with some improvement, no matter how microscoically small and insignificant (such as the difference between 99.999% pure copper and 99.9999% pure copper), they invariably perceive it to be subjectively better.

I think if there's any meaningful correlation here, it's that our subjective perceptions tend to mirror our pre-existing beleifs. The correlation you offer here is akin to saying there's a correlation among Christians about the divinitiy of Christ.

You say the correlation is so significant that you don't believe it's due to coincidence, well, I don't necessarily think it's a coincidence either.

We're constantly being inundated with the notion that better objective quality ipso facto translates into better subjective quality. Not just through marketing, but also through peer pressure. And not just in audio, but in many other aspects of our daily lives as well. And when you look at the objectively better equals subjectively better correlation in this light, it's not surprising at all.

Now, when you look at those who don't hold such pre-existing beliefs to a significant degree, suddenly there isn't the same sort of correlation with objective criteria.

We're all victims of "group think" to one degree or another. We're basically insecure and we tend to feel more comfortable when we're part of a group of like-minded individuals.

Sometimes an intrepid, independent soul decides to see what's out there beyond the current group and sometimes they find something which may be completely at odds with the prevailing wisdom of the group but ultimately it gives them greater satisfaction.

Sometimes these individuals remain as outcasts. But other times, other members of the group start to wander off as well and discover these new thoughts and sensations and eventually the group think paradigm changes completely.

So again, I don't think the correlation you offer here is terribly meaningful.

se
 
Old 25th March 2003, 10:08 PM   #373
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Default Re: ASSUMPTIONS, ASSUMPTIONS...

Quote:
Originally posted by fdegrove
Ah, so we are subjectivists...you automatically assume we do not measure our stuff, you're wrong.
Why would a subjectivist want to measure their stuff?

se
 
Old 25th March 2003, 10:13 PM   #374
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Default Re: Re: just one word plastics

Quote:
Originally posted by nw_avphile



If Fred or Peter or anyone else here was saying "I buy/build really high-end esoteric stuff because it makes me feel good and it sounds better to me" I'd say GREAT! But many of you are trying to argue the differences you hear, under very subjective biased conditions, are REAL and of potential benefit to others.

It is documented that under hypnosis, when someone is told to be stung by a bee, the person automaticly develops swelling in that area. How real is it?

Our whole lives are one big subjective experiences and you cannot classify everybody in comparison to your skills. If you were unable to pass double blind test and until I will not fail one, the above statement you made is not true. I suggest you get REAL and stick to the facts.
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Old 25th March 2003, 10:15 PM   #375
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Default STEVIE I WONDER...

Hi,

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So again, I don't think the correlation you offer here is terribly meaningful.
So, according to your previous post we should go back to noisy carbon comp resistors, beeswax paper caps, use dirty copper cables, use contaminated dirty substrates, use as much crystals as possible in our cables...nothing matters really.

Not even contact resistance etc, etc...it's all just a waste of time and money.

Hmmm....sounds good to me,
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Old 25th March 2003, 10:18 PM   #376
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Unhappy nw_avphile...

i reckon this thread is like Galileo trying to convince the papacy that earth goes around the sun, and not conversely.........you will be burned at the stake.....!!

No one...but no one has given a single satisfactory response to the key assertion that all amps. driven within their power ratings, to the same voltage swing, across the same load in turn cannot be distinguished by listening to them, provided their measured distortion is below 1000ppm across the audio band...

This is as much an established scientific fact as any you might care to name...........which no amount of words and debate and screaming will alter...


...and folks, you can rest assured that resistor tempco has about the same effect on your ears as a blade of grass beneath an elephant....
 
Old 25th March 2003, 10:20 PM   #377
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Default Submarine.

Hi,

Quote:
Why would a subjectivist want to measure their stuff?
A subjectivist may not want to, I do however like to know why I hear differences I don't know how to measure.

The assumption that we are subjectivists is wrong...
From what I recall from you Steve, you're much more a subjectivist than we are and frankly that's fine by me, just don't go pseudo-scientific on me.

Cheers,
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Old 25th March 2003, 10:27 PM   #378
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Default Re: ASSUMPTIONS, ASSUMPTIONS...

Quote:
Originally posted by fdegrove
If we, and together with us other people hear, repeatedly, differences we have no means of measuring does that mean the differences aren't there?
No, but neither does it mean that they are. I think what's at issue here are those who assert that they are without any convincing evidence to support the assertion.

Quote:
Naturally it makes life a lot easier dismissing audible yet unmeasurable differences claiming that if they can't be measured it therefore follows they're just not there.
I find that approach errrr, rather medieval.
Er, what differences have been established to actually be audible but which cannot be measured? I can't say that I'm aware of any.

What's Mediveal is the notion that a consensus somehow constitutes proof.

Quote:
I find this kind of attitude rather disturbing and if people keep that up nothing will ever change, well, not for the better anyway.
Things rarely change when people become religiously dogmatic.

Quote:
Fred mentioned tempco in resistors, he could no doubt add a myriad of other factors that influence sound...never, ever forget that music is dynamic and very complex in its content.
I think you rather grossly overstate things here.

What one should never, ever forget is that all that we can possibly hear from our audio systems, be it sinewaves or music or anything else, amounts to nothing more than changes in air pressure over time.

We have the capability to measure down to the thermal noise floor of the air itself and far beyond the audio band.

So, just what exactly could we possibly actually hear that we cannot also measure?

se
 
Old 25th March 2003, 10:27 PM   #379
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Default DISTORTION?WHAT DISTORTION?

Hi,

Quote:
provided their measured distortion is below 1000ppm across the audio band...
It just hit me that in a previous post it was 100 ppm...now it's upped to 1000ppm, errr... and why would you use parts per million?

Just kidding,
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Old 25th March 2003, 10:36 PM   #380
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Default Re: Submarine.

Quote:
Originally posted by fdegrove
A subjectivist may not want to, I do however like to know why I hear differences I don't know how to measure.
Ok, so it's a matter of curiousity. That's cool.

But I think many seem to want to put the cart before the horse by automatically assuming that their subjective perceptions are entirely due to objective realities. While that may be the case, it may just as well not be the case.

So it seems to me that a logical first course of action is to objectively establish actual audibility. Until one has done that, I can't see how one can possibly start measuring things and come up with any meaningful conclusions.

If it does turn out to be a psychological issue, you can measure for the next ten lifetimes and not come up with the right answer. And what good is that?

Quote:
The assumption that we are subjectivists is wrong...
From what I recall from you Steve, you're much more a subjectivist than we are and frankly that's fine by me, just don't go pseudo-scientific on me.
Don't worry. I keep my subjectivity and objectivity a safe distance from each other.

se
 

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