Blind Listening Tests & Amplifiers - Page 29 - diyAudio
Go Back   Home > Forums > Amplifiers > Solid State

Solid State Talk all about solid state amplification.

Please consider donating to help us continue to serve you.

Ads on/off / Custom Title / More PMs / More album space / Advanced printing & mass image saving
Closed Thread
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old 25th March 2003, 12:51 AM   #281
diyAudio Member
 
Peter Daniel's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: Toronto, Canada
Send a message via AIM to Peter Daniel
Default Re: Re: VIBERATIONSSSS

Quote:
Originally posted by nw_avphile




I'm not sure you understand the test? Coloration was what SY was talking about in point #1 that he made on the previous page and I answered at the top of this page. It does show up. ANY amplifier colorations, intentional or otherwise, will show up in a null test.



Coloration of the amp due to topology or coloration due to parts used?

It is just me, but I did tests with a single series resistor at the amp's input and ea. resistor had it's own different sonic signature. If we change just one resistor in our amp under test and assume it could be detected sonically, will it show in a null test?

If the answer is yes, then we have a perfect tool to choose resistors for best sound. I wonder which resistor would test best?

If the answer is no, than we have two alternatives. Either we were mistaken and there is no difference in sound of resistors, or the test is simply no good.

So what is your answer, nw avphile?
__________________
www.audiosector.com
“Do something really well. See how much time it takes. It might be a product, a work of art, who knows? Then give it away cheaply, just because you feel that it should not cost so much, even if it took a lot of time and expensive materials to make it.” - JC
 
Old 25th March 2003, 12:52 AM   #282
diyAudio Member
 
Tube_Dude's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: Aveiro-Portugal
Default Brasil...meu Brasil Brasileiro...terra de samba...............

Quote:
Originally posted by blmn
Hey Tube_Dude,

I not finished reading the whole thread yet, but I have to say about the quote below





We are three...

Saudações
Hi blmn

Wellcome abord!!!

Read all the thread you will find it amusing...to say the least!!!

Um abraço de este lado do oceano!!!
__________________
Jorge
 
Old 25th March 2003, 12:59 AM   #283
diyAudio Senior Member
 
fdegrove's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Belgium
Default Hey! We're getting closer...

Hi,

Quote:
Hey! We're getting closer...
No...not really.
Where have you been for the past fifteen years?

You assume we haven't done that kind of testing..we did...hundreds if not thousands of music lovers did that ten to fifteen years ago already...

We arrived at our conclusions back then which explains the opposition you're facing here...been there done that kinda feeling, you see?

Mind you, I was surprised to see that after so much effort, so much product and engineering leaving the door in the eighties, nineties, when joining the forum late August last year I still meet with the same objections.

No personal offense to any of you but "Educating Rita" seems to be a lifetime commitment.

Cheers,
__________________
Frank
 
Old 25th March 2003, 01:03 AM   #284
diyAudio Senior Member
 
fdegrove's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Belgium
Default NET RESULT.

Hi,

Quote:
If the answer is no, than we have two alternatives. Either we were mistaken and there is no difference in sound of resistors, or the test is simply no good.
You are not asking for votes here, are you?
__________________
Frank
 
Old 25th March 2003, 01:04 AM   #285
SY is offline SY  United States
diyAudio Moderator
 
SY's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: Chicagoland
Blog Entries: 1
Peter, you remind me of that old riddle about two men standing in an ordinary room, call them Porgie and Mudhead. Porgie is taller than Mudhead. Mudhead is taller than Porgie.

What are the two possible solutions to this seeming conundrum?

1. I'm lying.

2. I'm mistaken.


I think you actually said something quite profound earlier in the thread. There IS a difference between perceiving a difference when you already know in advance that there is one, and perceiving a difference when you DON'T know that in advance. I'm quite certain (99.99%) that you perceived a difference in those output resistors. I'm also pretty certain (95%) that if you didn't know whether a pair of amps had different resistors in them, you would be unable to tell with better than chance probability whether the two amps sounded identical or not, assuming the resistors had the same value and similarly low C and L parasitic impedances.
__________________
You might be screaming "No, no, no" and all they hear is "Who wants cake?" Let me tell you something: They all do. They all want cake.- Wilford Brimley
 
Old 25th March 2003, 01:07 AM   #286
diyAudio Member
 
Peter Daniel's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: Toronto, Canada
Send a message via AIM to Peter Daniel
Your reasoning doesn't make sense if you tried to trick me. Show me where mine doesn't, because I thought I had a pretty good case here.
__________________
www.audiosector.com
“Do something really well. See how much time it takes. It might be a product, a work of art, who knows? Then give it away cheaply, just because you feel that it should not cost so much, even if it took a lot of time and expensive materials to make it.” - JC
 
Old 25th March 2003, 01:10 AM   #287
SY is offline SY  United States
diyAudio Moderator
 
SY's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: Chicagoland
Blog Entries: 1
See my edit- I type too slowly.
__________________
You might be screaming "No, no, no" and all they hear is "Who wants cake?" Let me tell you something: They all do. They all want cake.- Wilford Brimley
 
Old 25th March 2003, 01:13 AM   #288
diyAudio Member
 
Peter Daniel's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: Toronto, Canada
Send a message via AIM to Peter Daniel
Quote:
Originally posted by SY



I think you actually said something quite profound earlier in the thread. There IS a difference between perceiving a difference when you already know in advance that there is one, and perceiving a difference when you DON'T know that in advance. I'm quite certain (99.99%) that you perceived a difference in those output resistors. I'm also pretty certain (95%) that if you didn't know whether a pair of amps had different resistors in them, you would be unable to tell with better than chance probability whether the two amps sounded identical or not, assuming the resistors had the same value and similarly low C and L parasitic impedances.
So it comes to the point we started with. One camp says there is no difference in the sound of parts and it is only psychological effect and that null test is the perfect tool for measuring amps for best sound.

The other camp says that ea. part has it's sonic signature and makes the sound of the amp in addition to a given topology. The null test doesn't show everything. I don't think we can move any further in our discussion then and the argument wil never be resolved.
__________________
www.audiosector.com
“Do something really well. See how much time it takes. It might be a product, a work of art, who knows? Then give it away cheaply, just because you feel that it should not cost so much, even if it took a lot of time and expensive materials to make it.” - JC
 
Old 25th March 2003, 01:15 AM   #289
diyAudio Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: Northwest
Default Re: Re: Re: VIBERATIONSSSS

Quote:
Originally posted by Peter Daniel
Coloration of the amp due to topology or coloration due to parts used?
Both... when I say "any coloration" I mean ANY. If anything in the amplifier makes the output different than the input, it shows up in the null difference signal.

Quote:
Originally posted by Peter Daniel
It is just me, but I did tests with a single series resistor at the amp's input and ea. resistor had it's own different sonic signature. If we change just one resistor in our amp under test and assume it could be detected sonically, will it show in a null test?

If the answer is yes, then we have a perfect tool to choose resistors for best sound. I wonder which one would test best?

If the answer is no, than we have two alternatives. Either we were mistaken and there is no difference in sound of resistors, or the test is simply no good.

So what is your answer, nw avphile?
There are two parts to the answer. The first might be if you say used an inductive resistor in a sensitive spot in the amplifier (the front end or feedback loop for example) it may well cause a change in the null test result.

The second part is there's a THIRD choice to explain hearing something that doesn't show up in a null test. It's called psychological bias and it's the basis for this entire thread.

It goes something like this: You have read, heard, been told, or otherwise suspect that resistors make a difference in the sound so you order up some different brands to find out. Some of them are kind of expensive ($28 in your case?).

The resistors arrive and you take your amp out of your system, take it apart, solder in the first brand of resistors, put it back together, and connect it back up in your system. Some might also let it warm up and/or burn the component in. All told, it will take some time and effort.

You sit down for a critical listen with your favorite music. At this point you've invested considerable time and money into this whole resistor thing, and what's more you're expecting resistors indeed make a difference, so guess what, you HEAR a difference even when there might not BE one!

Remember as a kid when the baseball coach, or teacher, or your mom told you that if you think you're going to fail you probably will? That works the same way with audio. If you THINK there are supposed to be differences, you'll probably hear them regardless if they're really there.

This can easily be proven by pulling the sorts of dirty tricks on people I outlined earlier in this thread. If I put a cheap receiver in your system and you believe it's playing when you come into the room, you're likely to say it sounds really AWFUL. I then turn the receiver off and the music keeps playing because it's really your system and nothing has changed. You were biased by the knowledge you thought the receiver was playing so it genuinely sounds bad to you.

It works just as well in reverse. I hook the receiver up but lead someone to believe it's their own system, and they'll not notice anything's wrong despite the fact they're listening to something they'd normally hate.

How do we resolve this psychological bias? BLIND TESTING!

I won't keep repeating myself. If you want to know more, read back through this thread and check out some of the references listed. This stuff is well documented but not widely published among audiophiles for obvious reasons.
 
Old 25th March 2003, 01:19 AM   #290
diyAudio Senior Member
 
fdegrove's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Belgium
Default NOPE.

Hi,

Quote:
Both... when I say "any coloration" I mean ANY. If anything in the amplifier makes the output different than the input, it shows up in the null difference signal.
No, 'fraid not.

Cheers,.....
__________________
Frank
 

Closed Thread


Hide this!Advertise here!
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off



New To Site? Need Help?

All times are GMT. The time now is 07:28 PM.


vBulletin Optimisation provided by vB Optimise (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2014 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.
Copyright ©1999-2014 diyAudio

Content Relevant URLs by vBSEO 3.3.2