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Old 25th March 2003, 01:11 AM   #271
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Default REALISM.

Hi,

Quote:
Why is it not realistic?
Because chances are against you to have Peter and myself in the room doing blind tests are rather slim...not that I'd mind.

Other than that, I'm pretty much convinced both Peter and myself would bust statistics in a hurry...in other words, choose better guinea bigs like most other stasticians do.

Relax and listen,
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Old 25th March 2003, 01:15 AM   #272
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Default The null...that tell the story!!!

Quote:
Well that brings up another good point about null testing... and that's what level you test at. I think Tube_Dude says he uses 2 volts RMS (I assume he means into the speaker) which is less than 1 watt into 8 ohms. I find with some amps, the noise floor of the amp starts to dominate the difference signal if you go too low. But when I say -60db, I mean -60db below the level of the signal, not below the maximum output level.
I have used 2volt input and 2 volts output in my test(inspired in the hafler but more simple) only for comparatif pourposes...and if you see mi post #69 in this thread
you will see that a tweked onkyo can have a null of 1mV....more than 60dB under the 2 volts output...

One more point i felt that anytime i decrease the null the sound quality improve...but we can't forget that this improvement depends of the rest of the audio system....specialy loudspeakers!!
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Old 25th March 2003, 01:20 AM   #273
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Quote:
Originally posted by nw_avphile


A good question!

Because you're driving real speakers with the null test, you could easily perform the test with the amplifier sitting on top of the speaker if you'd like. Any vibration/resonance/sound waves/electromagnetic interference/RFI/gamma rays from another galaxy or anything else that influences the sound would show up in the difference signal.

So yes, as an experiment, it would be interesting to conduct the test with the amp say on an isolation platform in a different room from the speakers, and again with it sitting on top of the speaker cabinet with no isolation with the speaker being driven fairly hard in both cases. If you got the same results, you can be quite confident that your amp is immune to vibration and doesn't need any special treatment or isolation.

If you get a different result, you could use the null testing to narrow down just how much isolation you needed to avoid the problem, or dribble some goop on the circuit until it went away, etc. That's an example of how null testing can be very useful.
This is a fine answer, yet slightly oversimplified. So far I didn't find a piece of SS gear that wouldn't be influenced by resonances and effectively it is observed sonically.

I did some experiments recently and just placing a strip of 1/4 thick wood or acrylic under amp's feet changes its tonal character. Acrylic sharpens high frequencies, wood tones everything down, rubber makes for muddy sound with amp staying in the same spot.

I notice it both with my 50kg Alephs and with 1 kg Gainclones.
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Old 25th March 2003, 01:22 AM   #274
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Default Re: REALISM.

Quote:
Originally posted by fdegrove
Because chances are against you to have Peter and myself in the room doing blind tests are rather slim...not that I'd mind.

Other than that, I'm pretty much convinced both Peter and myself would bust statistics in a hurry...in other words, choose better guinea bigs like most other stasticians do
It was a hypothetical question, but only one of you need be there to prove the point and it doesn't have to be a gainclone or Peter's $75 capacitors. It could be any amp you respect that we can come up with two identical versions of and your favorite cap against the Wondercap.

We could first verify the two amps sound the same in a blind test using the same caps, and then pop the Wondercaps into one of them and repeat the test. I'm assuming you're saying, if you get to choose these hypothetical amplifiers and that we do this in your own system, you could pick out the one with the Wondercaps if you didn't know which was which?
 
Old 25th March 2003, 01:24 AM   #275
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Default VIBERATIONSSSS

Hi,

Quote:
Any vibration/resonance/sound waves/electromagnetic interference/RFI/gamma rays from another galaxy or anything else that influences the sound would show up in the difference signal.
If your test does not show that up than it only adds to my believe that is is seriously flawed, not that I didn't know it already.

And you keep on avoiding the subject of component signature, as it is often refered to...colouration in my book, which will NOT show up in nulling tests as you know them.

Why you have such a hard time accepting that the test method you advocate is flawed is beyond me.
Naturally labelling people as subject opposed to objective measurements is easy, rest assured neither Fred, Peter, any other so called subjectivists are and neither am I.
I only feel it takes some experience to interpret what the scope and other analyser is showing you...no it is not in any book, that much I can tel you.

Pffft,

/Singing for the moment.
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Old 25th March 2003, 01:31 AM   #276
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Default TO CAP IT.

Hi,

Quote:
I'm assuming you're saying, if you get to choose these hypothetical amplifiers and that we do this in your own system, you could pick out the one with the Wondercaps if you didn't know which was which?
Yes, I am rather confident that I'd pass such a test with flying colours.
I always have in the past, not getting any younger though.

Oh, and in case you wonder about my resume and credentials too..I could send you those too...

Cheers,
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Old 25th March 2003, 01:33 AM   #277
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Default Re: VIBERATIONSSSS

Quote:
Originally posted by fdegrove
If your test does not show that up than it only adds to my believe that is is seriously flawed, not that I didn't know it already.
I never said it didn't? I've never run the null test with and without vibration present. That's why I said it would be an interesting test.

Quote:
Originally posted by fdegrove
And you keep on avoiding the subject of component signature, as it is often refered to...colouration in my book, which will NOT show up in nulling tests as you know them.
I'm not sure you understand the test? Coloration was what SY was talking about in point #1 that he made on the previous page and I answered at the top of this page. It does show up. ANY amplifier colorations, intentional or otherwise, will show up in a null test.

Quote:
Originally posted by fdegrove
Why you have such a hard time accepting that the test method you advocate is flawed is beyond me.
Please explain to me how it's flawed and we can go from there?
 
Old 25th March 2003, 01:45 AM   #278
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Hey Tube_Dude,

I not finished reading the whole thread yet, but I have to say about the quote below


Quote:
So it emerges that are 2 scholls of thougt here

1-only with two known menbers me and Nw_phile that belive that audio is a aplication of cience and that good design and some tests can can help in acessing the fidelity of the amp...

2-the other, the vast mayority of members that belive that listening is all...that more important that the nuling test, is the opinion of some one, that from other part of planet claim that capacitor A sound better that capacitor B witout any cientifical proof...and that a amplifier can make a role of Mozart and make better the original sound...

So my friend Nw_phile...now we are two!!!

Alone but happy!

We are three...

Saudações
 
Old 25th March 2003, 01:45 AM   #279
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Default TURNING THE TABLES.

Hi,

Quote:
Please explain to me how it's flawed and we can go from there?
Has it occured to you how you try to avoid the real issues at hand?
You're the one bringing this method of testing, comparing gear to the forum, I feel the onus is on you not me.

Why is it so hard to follow some suggestions made and report back?

Cheers,
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Old 25th March 2003, 01:46 AM   #280
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Default Re: TO CAP IT.

Quote:
Originally posted by fdegrove
Yes, I am rather confident that I'd pass such a test with flying colours.
I always have in the past, not getting any younger though.
Hey! We're getting closer... now what we need are two members here who actually live halfway close to each other to make this sort of challenge a reality. Two members from each side of the subjectivist/objectivist fence would be ideal.

It doesn't have to be over Wondercaps. It can be the ability to tell say a $15,000 Mark Levinson from a $300 Onkyo or Yamaha mainstream integrated amp. That actually should be a much easier challenge, right? After all, the cheap Japanese amp will have not only have cheap ten cent capacitors, but cheap plain copper wiring, cheap resistors, cheap connectors, a cheap volume control, no (obvious) vibration/resonance supression, a wimpy power supply, etc.

So any takers on this one? A cheap Asian made integrated up against (hopefully your) high-end four or five figure power amp (one with good specs) in your own system blind?
 

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