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Old 24th March 2003, 05:53 PM   #201
jcarr is offline jcarr  United States
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Fred:

>I believe that even companies like Sony listen to there products as part of the design phase.<

I have worked with a number of Japanese electronics manufacturers, including Sony, Pioneer, Panasonic, and others, and in all cases that I know about, listening (both sighted and blind) was a vital part of the development process. And as I may mentioned previously, the big Japanese electronics manufacturers have had a great deal to do with the present existance of "audiophile" electrolytic capacitors.

The Black Gates started out as a house project at Toshiba, Sony has provided significant input into the Nichicon Muse series and has also had Elna manufacture custom variants of the Silmic series, Panasonic's capacitor division manufactures the Purism and Take series at the request of their audio electronics division, and so on.

FWIW, jonathan carr
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Old 24th March 2003, 06:10 PM   #202
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"What commercial audio amplifiers have you brought to market Fred? What books have you had published? What papers, studies and documentation have you referenced to support your views (there are dozens of references in Self's book)?'

I could give you hundreds of links on the sound of amplifiers and passive components.
I did network compensated digital cable, pulse transformer design, differential video based DAC digital interface buffers, SPDIF to AES/EBU conversion circuits for Audient Technologies. This involved amplifier,digital, RF, and signal integrity design. I think you will see as many of post deal with engineering matters with frequent references to technical articles, Engineering text, data sheets, Spice modeling, and websites electronic theory. I am probably the biggest contributor on the forum for access to technical information on the web and recommendations of engineering text. I have posted links to dozens of data sheets, application notes, and Spice models and programs. I don't think I have ever done a design without Spice modeling. Hardly all subjective opinion. Ask around

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BSEE University of Texas at Arlington.

Over ten years in telecommunication doing analog, digital, EMI, signal integrity, and protection circuit design.This is a picture of the line card which I did EMI reduction, cost reduction, and protection circuits for lightning and power line cross:

I'm sorry but did I miss your professional background and education other than selling High End audio. If so I apologize.
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Old 24th March 2003, 06:11 PM   #203
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Quote:
Originally posted by nw_avphile

Well, I guess that depends on how you define &quot;really high end&quot;?

The easy answer would be this January. I attend CES regularly where, at the Alexis Park, you can find room after room of esoteric gear--much of which costs more than many houses. Considering the manufactures are there trying to convince people to buy their expensive gear, it's a safe bet they put a lot of effort into setting it up. The high-end press reports every year on all the wonderful sounding stuff they heard at CES so hopefully that qualifies?

The Alexis Park is a wonderful retreat from the convention centers at CES (which are crowded with no place to sit down). So I enjoy wandering from room to room and stopping in to plunk down and listen to music in a peaceful environment for a while. I've heard some great speakers at the A.P. and it's always fun to look at the construction and the shear creativity of some of the high-end manufactures. It's also fun to talk with some of the designers.

So yeah, I've listened to everything from total overkill systems where the amplifiers had to be brought in with a forklift to 7 watt single-ended triode amps driving bizarre horn loaded speakers from Germany.

I also frequent high-end dealers (as I said, I used to work for one) and I do consulting on high-end custom home installs which sometimes has me involved with really high-end gear.

Most consider my own system somewhat &quot;high-end&quot; but I suspect you would not. Why do you ask?
The reason I asked is because you did most of your refrences in your posts to early nineties, and from that time the whole hi end scene changed dramatically. Also the displays at CES and some dealers places are usually not set up properly and there is way too much traffic to really concentrate on music.

So I wondered if you were exposed to really good sounding system, because you sound disappointed with your audio experiences. Up untill last year I also thought that I know what high end is all about (and price isn't really an indicator what's good), but recently my views has changed. There is a lot to be learned and experienced yet.
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Old 24th March 2003, 06:13 PM   #204
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Default Re: Hehehehehehe!!!!

Quote:
Originally posted by SY


Because he wants to tell you that you have crappy speakers and you're an alcoholic.

Quote:
Originally posted by Tube_Dude


And me also ,with my crappy english!!!

What a life!!!!

Hehehehehhehehehehehe!!!
SY and Tube Dude,

You both sound very sarcastic here. Are you also disappointed in your audio endeavours, or is it just the best you can do for now?
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Old 24th March 2003, 06:17 PM   #205
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Default electrolytics

Quote:
Originally posted by jcarr
And as I may mentioned previously, the big Japanese electronics manufacturers have had a great deal to do with the present existance of &quot;audiophile&quot; electrolytic capacitors.
That doesn't surprise me. For one thing, that's one way the manufactures distinguish, from a marketing perspective, between their consumer and premium lines. Premium lines such as Pioneer's Elite and Sony's ES have premium electrolytics. Does that make them sound better? Possibly.

But please also consider all the great lengths manfuctures go to in an effort to either match what the competition is doing or trying to come up with something new to differentiate themselves in a very crowded market. Sooner or later manufacture B usually matches what manufacture A does (regardless of it has any real benefit)--this is especially true for Japanese manufactures.

Doug Self talks about electrolytic capacitor distortions in his book and shows a graph where THD from a small signal 'lytic approaches 0.1% which could cause an audible problem under some circuimstances. He agrees with trying to minimize such distortions.

Like I said, I'm all for using better parts where it makes a beneficial measurable difference or an audible difference that can survive blind testing.
 
Old 24th March 2003, 06:26 PM   #206
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Quote:
Originally posted by jcarr
Fred:

&gt;I believe that even companies like Sony listen to there products as part of the design phase.&lt;

I have worked with a number of Japanese electronics manufacturers, including Sony, Pioneer, Panasonic, and others, and in all cases that I know about, listening (both sighted and blind) was a vital part of the development process. And as I may mentioned previously, the big Japanese electronics manufacturers have had a great deal to do with the present existance of &quot;audiophile&quot; electrolytic capacitors.

The Black Gates started out as a house project at Toshiba, Sony has provided significant input into the Nichicon Muse series and has also had Elna manufacture custom variants of the Silmic series, Panasonic's capacitor division manufactures the Purism and Take series at the request of their audio electronics division, and so on.

FWIW, jonathan carr
And now conductive electrolyte capacitors are common part for switching power supply designs as well as high speed digital design based very objective measurements. I have made many of these measurements on Black Gate, Sanyo, Oscon, as well as film and foil polystyrene and polypropylene caps on a $16K Agilent impedance bridge in my telecom gig. Another example of my rampant subjectivism.

Most of the audiophile parts come from vendors designing for the Space, Military, and Nuclear Power industries. The first samples of Vishay resistors were from a rep who was indignant to talk to me because his other customers were NASA, Rockwall and University research departments. When a called Texas components, to order some the guy there told me how bitchen they sounded in his hot rodded Dynaco tube stuff. I was probably the first guy in dallas to put Vishays in audio equipment. You don't think it was because some open minded engineer listened to them before they they acheived "cult audiophile status"?
 
Old 24th March 2003, 06:28 PM   #207
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Quote:
Originally posted by Peter Daniel
The reason I asked is because you did most of your refrences in your posts to early nineties...

Also the displays at CES and some dealers places are usually not set up properly and there is way too much traffic to really concentrate on music.
I only said I built my "high-end" power amp in the early 90's. As for CES, it sounds like you haven't been to the Alexis Park lately (if ever)? It was a relative ghost town this year. A lot of the rooms, at any given moment, were empty except for the people working for the company exhibiting in that room.

The doors are often closed (with a please come in sign on the outside) so that you're not distracted by people walking by outside, etc., while listening.

It strains credibility to say that dealers and manufactures are incabable of properly setting up their own equipment when they have a very strong interest in demonstrating the gear in the best light possible. For the small high-end companies, the designers themselves are often at CES. If they can't set up their gear properly, who can?

The rooms at the A.P. are usually suites and they're not very different in shape and size from the rooms most people use to listen at home. Many companies bring in acoustical room treatments of various types as well, not to mention exotic power conditioners, the latest interconnects, etc., etc.

High-end dealers usually have purpose built sound rooms that go far BEYOND what most people can do at home. They also spend endless time tweaking the systems in them (it is, after all, their full time job). So I just don't buy your argument.
 
Old 24th March 2003, 06:28 PM   #208
SY is offline SY  United States
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No, Peter, just a small joke at Eric's expense (he's someone who can actually appreciate humor, being an Aussie); the reference is probably buried way too far back in the thread for memory to serve.

I agree with Fred to this extent: we're pretty far away from being able to recreate an illusion of reality in the living room. But my own view on what's the remaining issues is probably closer to Ken Kantor's (a guy who has made one or two successful products); getting the last .001% of distortion or that last V/us slew isn't going to suddenly make things better. We can do a pretty good job of making the electrical signal out of a power amp be a scaled version of the mike's output. The limitations are in the basic ideas: the use of some point (spatial) sampling of pressure, converting that to two (or five) electrical channels, then running that signal back to a couple of point or line transducers plopped down in a living room.

One of my biggest influences, Murray Zeligman, used to say that people spend too much time worrying about mice and not enough time worrying about elephants.
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Old 24th March 2003, 06:41 PM   #209
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Quote:
Originally posted by nw_avphile

I only said I built my &quot;high-end&quot; power amp in the early 90's. As for CES, it sounds like you haven't been to the Alexis Park lately (if ever)? It was a relative ghost town this year. A lot of the rooms, at any given moment, were empty except for the people working for the company exhibiting in that room.

The doors are often closed (with a please come in sign on the outside) so that you're not distracted by people walking by outside, etc., while listening.

It strains credibility to say that dealers and manufactures are incabable of properly setting up their own equipment when they have a very strong interest in demonstrating the gear in the best light possible. For the small high-end companies, the designers themselves are often at CES. If they can't set up their gear properly, who can?

The rooms at the A.P. are usually suites and they're not very different in shape and size from the rooms most people use to listen at home. Many companies bring in acoustical room treatments of various types as well, not to mention exotic power conditioners, the latest interconnects, etc., etc.

High-end dealers usually have purpose built sound rooms that go far BEYOND what most people can do at home. They also spend endless time tweaking the systems in them (it is, after all, their full time job). So I just don't buy your argument.
And I don't buy yours if you never actually worked on tweaking your system. It took me few months to finally figure out what kind of feet material use on my amps and what changes to do in a circuit to get it sounding the way I like it. Most exhibitors don't have enough time to do that before and during the show. I've seen pictures from a show and I saw equipment positioned on wire racks, while at home I'm using pneumatic platform. Even if someone brings conditioners I don't think that quality of AC power is that good in every hotel room. I don't know about dealers in your area, but the ones I saw locally have the same attitude to audio as you. So what can I expect?

It is only the places of really devoted audiophiles where you can really experience the real magic of reproduction system. And it doesn't happen every time.
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Old 24th March 2003, 06:43 PM   #210
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Quote:
Originally posted by nw_avphile


It strains credibility to say that dealers and manufactures are incabable of properly setting up their own equipment when they have a very strong interest in demonstrating the gear in the best light possible. For the small high-end companies, the designers themselves are often at CES. If they can't set up their gear properly, who can?

The rooms at the A.P. are usually suites and they're not very different in shape and size from the rooms most people use to listen at home. Many companies bring in acoustical room treatments of various types as well, not to mention exotic power conditioners, the latest interconnects, etc., etc.
.
Demo rooms are incredibly difficult to get to sound good and AC power is dreadful there. You have a very short time to set up a system in an unfamiliar room, I can't count the number of people have told me this including my product rep who had set up rooms.
Why the hell do you think they bring all that stuff with them, for the joy of shipping and unloading it?

I have heard more bad rooms in High End stores than good ones and have been involved in the set up of rooms in several local stores.

Are you just trying to provoke us or are you serious? I wonder if you have been trying to pull our legs this whole time. That is the only explanation I can think off.
 

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