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Old 24th March 2003, 04:13 PM   #191
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Default Re: Re: Re: Topological acuity....

Quote:
Originally posted by Fred Dieckmann



He also talks about the sound of different passive components. How could that be?
I noticed he recommends tantalum resistors and Hovland caps. How is it possible? Did he finally figure out what sells well or he is simply not restricted by marketing dept. any more?
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Old 24th March 2003, 04:26 PM   #192
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Default Hafler vs Null Testing

Quote:
Originally posted by Fred Dieckmann
This dredging up the XL-280 and Hafler test is interesting too. I looked at the schematic and it very much looks to be an Erno
Borbely design based on the parts choice and topology. There are lots of 1% metal film resistors, polypropylene caps, polycarbonate caps, and even two carbon comp resistors. The Toshiba Jfets in the front end are are favorite of many of the lunatic fringe set. In fact many of these part types are what the "tweaker delusional audiophile" set recommend.
Well... the XL-280 sold for around $500 or $600 assembled if my memory is correct? For a 145 w/ch (continuous power at clipping 280w/ch into 4 ohms) that's not exactly "high-end" pricing. The poly caps in the Hafler are the sort you can buy from DigiKey for under a dollar or two. As I said elsewhere, I believe Borbely was involved with the design and I agree he's a talented designer.

I have nothing against using higher quality components if they make a measurable or audible (blind) difference. In the case of the XL-280 I suspect either they did, or they used some of those parts for marketing reasons like so many other manufactures have done.

Also, the XL-280 is really an entirely separate issue from that of null testing. It just happens Hafler brought null testing out of the closet with the XL-280. But whatever you care to say about the XL-280 doesn't make null testing any more or less valid.
 
Old 24th March 2003, 04:31 PM   #193
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Pkamp....i have studied this particular chip's schematic with some rigour......it is infact a widlar-thomson derivative....i.e: the same topology in essence recommended by D. Self...my point is, differentiating between topologies by merely listening to them is shown to be fraudulent by the D.Self/gainclone debate on this forum...

Some rigor...
Evidently a quasi-complementry output stage is equivalent to a complementry EF of CFP within the context of your rigorous study.
Both the National LM and Signetics TDA72xx are quasi-complementry output configurations, possibly due to the difficulty of putting complementry output devices of sufficient power in a monolithic circut. That toplogy is not something I've not seen in Mr. Self's work.

Indeed, most amps use a ltp input, a Vas, a Vge, and an ouput stage in an amp; and if by your understanding that makes them equivalent topologies I'll accept that as consistent with your intellectual acumen. In the scheme of things, certainly, most all AB audio amps 'look' like Bob Widlar's op amps.

I would never argue that one can differentiate between amps toplogies (by whatever metrics) by only listening. I will say that after using 'engineering' to ensure stability, bw, slew.... one can differentiate between implementations by listening.

If you cannot distinguish subjectively between 2 amps of similar objective metrics, good for you, you can save yourself some money, but please don't try to justify yourself with specious topological equivalencies.
 
Old 24th March 2003, 04:32 PM   #194
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Default Re: Blind rides again...

Quote:
Originally posted by nw_avphile

Do others really think I'm being dishonest? Again, all the concepts I've presented can be readily verified. If you choose to think that myself, Doug Self, Tom Nousaine and the countless others who have said similar things are all lying to you, that's your choice I guess.
I said intellectually dishonest. There is a difference. I am referring to refuse to admit to your self that your testing can be flawed and mask differences. I question the motivation of the people making the claims about double blind testing. Walt Jung conducted double blind testing of preamp circuits and talked about the successes and limitations of the test. When a whole industry flies against the premise a small number of people one wonders about the motivation and results of these few. I believe that even companies like Sony listen to there products as part of the design phase. Tell me exactly who these people are that this group is protecting and what they are protecting them from. I see a small group of people trying to protect their egos and preventing others from making progress and getting more enjoyment from their equipment. I have seen countless people move out of the measurement only camp into the realm of listening, learning, experimenting and enjoying their equipment more. Many of them are intelligent people from conservative science and engineering backgrounds.

You one of the few have seen trying to go in the other direction.
 
Old 24th March 2003, 04:34 PM   #195
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Default Iraq war.

Looks like the Iraq war has had its effects here also.
Plenty of 'unpleasant feelings'. This is not a good thing. This was a great HAPPY forum. Lets keep it that way . It's not one's opinion that matters .. it's how we put it across that matters.

It is a great thing to respect all people. It's even greater if we can do that in real life.
I thought that we must be better than the Martians but now ......I am not quite so sure !
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Old 24th March 2003, 04:39 PM   #196
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Default Re: Re: Re: Topological acuity....

Quote:
Originally posted by Fred Dieckmann
Most of the papers in the AES Journal are written by academics with a particular agenda and little or no experience designing audio.
Ah, so now you also want to discredit and/or ignore the AES and the entire scientific peer review process because what they publish doesn't agree with YOUR biased and subjective views?

Quote:
Originally posted by Fred Dieckmann
If Dougless Self is a brilliant designer why doesn't he have a string of successful commercial products out there. I have never seen any. I guess its all be cause of the great audiophile conspiracy.
Well, Self does have a commercial background, but he readily admits in his book there's nothing especially magic about his approach to amplifier design. His blameless amplifier is just a refined version of the same topology that's in use in countless commercial designs. Why should he go into a market already crowded with excellent products when his would have little differentiation?

Self's book does a great job of discussing "subjectivists" (i.e. those who place non-blind listening results above all else in audio) in the first chapter of his book. He discusses all the things we've talked about in this thread and more. He makes very credible (and well referenced) arguments why subjectivists hear and believe what they do, and why they're often wrong.

What commercial audio amplifiers have you brought to market Fred? What books have you had published? What papers, studies and documentation have you referenced to support your views (there are dozens of references in Self's book)?
 
Old 24th March 2003, 04:49 PM   #197
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nw_avphile

I wonder what was your most recent encounter with really high end, properly set up equipment?
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Old 24th March 2003, 05:08 PM   #198
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Quote:
Originally posted by Peter Daniel
nw_avphile

I wonder what was your most recent encounter with really high end, properly set up equipment?
Well, I guess that depends on how you define "really high end"?

The easy answer would be this January. I attend CES regularly where, at the Alexis Park, you can find room after room of esoteric gear--much of which costs more than many houses. Considering the manufactures are there trying to convince people to buy their expensive gear, it's a safe bet they put a lot of effort into setting it up. The high-end press reports every year on all the wonderful sounding stuff they heard at CES so hopefully that qualifies?

The Alexis Park is a wonderful retreat from the convention centers at CES (which are crowded with no place to sit down). So I enjoy wandering from room to room and stopping in to plunk down and listen to music in a peaceful environment for a while. I've heard some great speakers at the A.P. and it's always fun to look at the construction and the shear creativity of some of the high-end manufactures. It's also fun to talk with some of the designers.

So yeah, I've listened to everything from total overkill systems where the amplifiers had to be brought in with a forklift to 7 watt single-ended triode amps driving bizarre horn loaded speakers from Germany.

I also frequent high-end dealers (as I said, I used to work for one) and I do consulting on high-end custom home installs which sometimes has me involved with really high-end gear.

Most consider my own system somewhat "high-end" but I suspect you would not. Why do you ask?
 
Old 24th March 2003, 05:30 PM   #199
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Quote:
Originally posted by nw_avphile


Most consider my own system somewhat "high-end" but I suspect you would not. Why do you ask?
Because he wants to tell you that you have crappy speakers and you're an alcoholic.
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Old 24th March 2003, 05:39 PM   #200
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Default Hehehehehehe!!!!

Quote:
Because he wants to tell you that you have crappy speakers
And me also ,with my crappy english!!!

What a life!!!!

Hehehehehhehehehehehe!!!
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