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Old 23rd March 2003, 11:48 PM   #161
vic2 is offline vic2  United States
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Default oscilloscopes

Jorge,

What I mean is that if you are measuring the output of an amp, say sin wave, music or whatever with an oscilloscope, the amp will respond differently to the scope then to say a dynamic speaker where the voice coil is constantly changing position in the magnetic gap. Different amps have different abilities to put out current into different loads. That is why I suggested earlier that amp comparisons should be done with different systems. Would current output be the same across the same frequency spectrum for a dynamic driver vs an electrostatic system? Aside from the fact that one may want prolonged testing periods to become acquainted with a component.

I am specifically interested in this because I want to build a gainclone (or I prefer to say OPamp or inverting Opamp) with parallel ICs for better current output into lower loads. I already have a pair of speakers I built that have very transparent/neutral mid and high end and I am still thinking about a pair of complementary low-end units. I think I am off thread a bit.

Anyway, IMHO and possibly in that of others, an amp is one part of a dynamic system and there are many factors to consider when comparing amps, components, etc...
 
Old 23rd March 2003, 11:54 PM   #162
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Default The test...

Quote:
I am specifically interested in this because I want to build a gainclone (or I prefer to say OPamp or inverting Opamp)
This test don't work in the inverting configuration...only in the no inverting...
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Old 24th March 2003, 12:07 AM   #163
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Default TESTING WITH EARS IN POCKET.

Hi,

Quote:
Hi Vic...have you read the explanation of the test??
Well, I did.
IMHO, optimizing an amp with a speaker connected to it is a rather tricky art of self-delusion.

In essence that amp may sound fine on that particular load and impedance curve but it does not guarantee good results on other speakers.
Not that there are too many amps about that can drive any kind of load with equal aplomb, but still.

Moreover, I still have to a way to measure colourations, dynamic behaviour etc.

Peter,

I sincerely hope you keep on posting here no matter what some moody member seems to have in mind.

All,

BTW, I don't think that what Fred is talking about is art.
To me it is a science we just aren't understanding yet.
In the meantime use the best instruments you have...your ears.

Some members here have spent a considerable part of their lives on music reproduction in various ways.

I don't feel we should trash their vast amounts of experience, after all those members have been pushing the envelope and some are partially responsible for the current state of music reproduction at home...
High-end gear is expensive for obvious reasons,here at the forum you all have a vast amount of knowledge available to you allowing you to build your own stuff and do even better than the state of the art .

All you need to have is a will to learn.

Cheers,
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Old 24th March 2003, 12:07 AM   #164
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Question gainclone proof....

....interestingly, i have observed that detractors of the douglas Self design approach on this forum simultaneously have an affection for the 'gainclone' designs which uses a near identical topology.....
 
Old 24th March 2003, 12:14 AM   #165
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Default The gainclone...

Quote:
....interestingly, i have observed that detractors of the douglas Self design approach on this forum simultaneously have an affection for the 'gainclone' designs which uses a near identical topology.....
I agreed...maybe because the gainclone is a complete package...no need to understand as the circuits works...like a Mc Donalds food...Ready to eat!!
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Old 24th March 2003, 12:37 AM   #166
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Smile Rebutal?

Quote:
Originally posted by mikek


.....cannot help smiling at this particular red herring......While no one listens to sinusoids for fun...(well...no one i know anyway)....,an amplifier cannot possibly have any views as to what signals appear at its input.....whatever appears at the input at any instant simply resolves to a voltage that must be multiplied by its gain, and presented at low impedance to the transducer.

A sinusoid constitutes an excellent test signal because all waveforms in nature can be shown to consist of an infinite number of sinusoids...(or cosinusoids to be precise).

I suggest the most significant point raised at the begining of this thread has been ignored...and that is.....all amplifiers with say less than 100 parts per million THD, driven within their power ratings, and at the same power output into the same load, cannot be distinguished by merely listening to them.

Crucialy, of course, differences in load driving ability will be observed as the volume control is advanced, but this then is a wholly explicable case of raw available power..i.e: current reserves, and headroom.....Nothing to do with the issues raised in this thread....i.e: unmeasurable, but audible differences between units.....which have consistently been shown to be wholly imaginary.
......i would be interested to read a point by point rebutal of the above views from the 'ears only instead of measurements' fraternity.....

 
Old 24th March 2003, 12:39 AM   #167
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Default Re: The gainclone...

Quote:
Originally posted by mikek
....interestingly, i have observed that detractors of the douglas Self design approach on this forum simultaneously have an affection for the 'gainclone' designs which uses a near identical topology.....
I don't care at all what topology it is, if I can use it well. It either produces satisfying results or not. Some of you like to play with circuits, I like to play with implementing those circuits. The end result is the only thing that really matters.

Quote:
Originally posted by Tube_Dude


I agreed...maybe because the gainclone is a complete package...no need to understand as the circuits works...like a Mc Donalds food...Ready to eat!!
Isn't our hobby about music? In some way it's like food. You either like it or not and you always need more.
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Old 24th March 2003, 12:54 AM   #168
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Smile Hi Peter..

Love your amplifier case designs....should consider setting up a small business.....trust moi....you'll eventualy make a fortune...

Now ....on the points i raised....all i was trying to show logically, and from first principals, was the inescapable fact that 'audible but unmeasurable' defects in power amps. simply do not exist.....
I think that is now clear....
 
Old 24th March 2003, 12:58 AM   #169
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Default Rain and tears....

Quote:
I think that is now clear....
I can see clear now...the rain is gone!!!!....lalalalalallalala...............
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Old 24th March 2003, 01:31 AM   #170
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Default Re: Hi Peter..

Quote:
Originally posted by mikek

I think that is now clear....
It is rather transparent, like "Transparent Cable".
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