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Old 23rd March 2003, 11:22 PM   #151
vic2 is offline vic2  United States
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Default analogies

Sorry, but I just had to chime in.

ANother analogy. It is believed that eating bran in the morning will lower one's cholesterol. However, bran comes in the form of carbohydrates. Eating carbohydrates in the morning will produce an insulin surge that will take available glucose and turn it into fat. In other words, eating carbs in the a.m. can make you lose weight. The only cholesterol that bran will reduce is the availability of absorbable cholesterol present in the GI tract. If one is eating bran, one is likely not gorging on eggs and steak. Therefore, we conclude that bran reduces cholesterol. But, there are no bran pills, are there?

It also turns out that if someone makes a conscious effort to eat bran in the a.m. they are also making conscious efforts throughout the day to watch their diet. So, in the long run, they will likely get healthier.

If someone goes through the trouble of getting a high quality amp, they likely have better components elsewhere.

If one is to do blind, AB, or whatever testing, it has to be beyond just swapping an amplifier in and out. I think that I recall that earlier in this thread, someone mentioned performing the blind testing with KEFs. Try it again with other speakers and other types of speakers. Is the source good enough and dynamic enough to take full advantage of each amp. There are people in these forums that have changes small aspects of their components and have realized differences when they didn't expect to and no differences when they expected them. This can't be overlooked.

I suppose one could take an oscilloscope and compare the outputs of amplifiers. But, even there, one would still not get a true representation of how an amplifier would respond under real world loads.

To the person who originally stated that because no differences were found that there existed no difference. I think that you only just started the process. You have a long way to go. That's why it is so easy for many to jump in and make comments (like me.)

But, don't stop being skeptical. Without skeptics, we don't have others to prove things to and it is too easy to convince oneself.

-Vic

PS in my other life I am in the medical profession, specializing the area of neurological sciences. I am very aware of blind testing and the process since I have published several papers and have been on several institutional review boards where we examine others' research protocols.
 
Old 23rd March 2003, 11:23 PM   #152
vic2 is offline vic2  United States
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Default correction

I should have said that eating carbs in the am can make you GAIN weight.
 
Old 23rd March 2003, 11:25 PM   #153
moamps is offline moamps  Croatia
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Default Re: flying blind

Quote:
Originally posted by Fred Dieckmann
Sorry to spilt the post.

to Fred Dieckmann

you have quoted incorrectly, and ironic at all
I'm afraid you sorry doesn't count.

to nw_avphile

I agree with your ideas, but I don't think that Hafler circuit show the best correlation between measurements and sound quality. FFT analyses tell much more. IMO


to Peter Daniel

your words:

"The person who started the current thread seems to be very enthusiastic about his point of view, yet to me it seems like we are talking here about apples and oranges. If I can use a good analogy I could compare it to a discussion between two types of people. One type have never had sex and they just talk about it using their imagination and try to describe it the best way they feel appropriate. Second type, had sex and they know what it's all about. There is no way they can pass their experience and sensations they were subjected to, to the group of the people who never had it."

You are moderator here. Can you explain this? Or maybe put yourself in sinbin for few days.


MU
BScEE
 
Old 23rd March 2003, 11:28 PM   #154
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Default The load!!!

Quote:
I suppose one could take an oscilloscope and compare the outputs of amplifiers. But, even there, one would still not get a true representation of how an amplifier would respond under real world loads.
But Vic...the test with osciloscope is with your favorite speaker...so witha real world load!!!
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Old 23rd March 2003, 11:43 PM   #155
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Default Re: Re: flying blind

Quote:
Originally posted by moamps





to Peter Daniel

your words:

"The person who started the current thread seems to be very enthusiastic about his point of view, yet to me it seems like we are talking here about apples and oranges. If I can use a good analogy I could compare it to a discussion between two types of people. One type have never had sex and they just talk about it using their imagination and try to describe it the best way they feel appropriate. Second type, had sex and they know what it's all about. There is no way they can pass their experience and sensations they were subjected to, to the group of the people who never had it."

You are moderator here. Can you explain this? Or maybe put yourself in sinbin for few days.


MU
BScEE
Please tell me what to explain? Are you the person belonging to the first group?

Or maybe the word "sex" is not allowed on this board? In that case, I was not aware of that even if I am a moderator.
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Old 23rd March 2003, 11:57 PM   #156
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Smile WOW !! ..... You guys have been busy

The "line in the sand" has been drawn by Fred, and with this I have absolutely no argument:
Quote:
I think your are confusing art and science
Conceded!

This is what I stated (in different words) way back on page #2. Dare I be arrogant enough to quote myself (I know no-one else would):
Quote:
The inescapable truth is that psychological factors do alter our perceptions and appreciation of things in the real world.
So long at Fred et al are talking about art and accepting that appreciation is in the "ear of the beholder", then no-one here can argue otherwise.

The poor originator of this thread (God bless his naive & deluded socks!) was I believe motivated by trying to protect some of our number from the outrageous marketing and profiteering which is ever pervasive throughout the audio industry...... best likened to the "snake oil" of the 1900's or women's cosmetics today ;-)

There does, I believe, need to be some semblance of objectivity somewhere in the assessment process and I think that the processes suggested (both of them) are of greater value than simple "bench-testing", which I think we all agree has been found wanting.

The polarised camps:
1. all objectivity is bad, subjectivity rules! and
2. subjectivity is pseudoscience and objectivity rules!

...... are likely both wrong.

cheers
mark

PS: The comments about this thread being hi-jacked seem fair. Other people have been spoken to about "advertising" on the forum. Seems odd that one of our moderators would walk this path.
 
Old 24th March 2003, 12:04 AM   #157
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Default Re: WOW !! ..... You guys have been busy

Quote:
Originally posted by mefinnis


PS: The comments about this thread being hi-jacked seem fair. Other people have been spoken to about "advertising" on the forum. Seems odd that one of our moderators would walk this path.
I was only replying to a member, but if it bothers you, consider my info removed. Technically, this is not a commercial product yet, but still a prototype. Seeing something like that on a forum, would rather benefit the members than cause damage. Yet obviously, some of you can't handle that. Sorry for hijacking the thread.

PS. Being a moderator doesn't make me any different from other members of this forum, so please refrain from such allusions.
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Old 24th March 2003, 12:18 AM   #158
vic2 is offline vic2  United States
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Jorge,

Oscilloscopes don't tell the whole story. WHat about impedence vs. frequency. What about current output vs. impedence?

There are a lot of variables to consider. And there will be a lot of discussion. I think that's the point of all of this as long as it remains cordial and informative. I think there are a lot of informed people here with good input. Just because they differ does not make them wrong.

My

Vic
 
Old 24th March 2003, 12:22 AM   #159
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Default The test of the test....

Quote:
Oscilloscopes don't tell the whole story. WHat about impedence vs. frequency. What about current output vs. impedence?
Hi Vic...have you read the explanation of the test??
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Old 24th March 2003, 12:37 AM   #160
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Smile This indeed is a 'fun' thread...

Quote:
Originally posted by Peter Daniel
Another question is do you usually listen to a 2V sine wave?
.....cannot help smiling at this particular red herring......While no one listens to sinusoids for fun...(well...no one i know anyway)....,an amplifier cannot possibly have any views as to what signals appear at its input.....whatever appears at the input at any instant simply resolves to a voltage that must be multiplied by its gain, and presented at low impedance to the transducer.

A sinusoid constitutes an excellent test signal because all waveforms in nature can be shown to consist of an infinite number of sinusoids...(or cosinusoids to be precise).

I suggest the most significant point raised at the begining of this thread has been ignored...and that is.....all amplifiers with say less than 100 parts per million THD, driven within their power ratings, and at the same power output into the same load, cannot be distinguished by merely listening to them.

Crucialy, of course, differences in load driving ability will be observed as the volume control is advanced, but this then is a wholly explicable case of raw available power..i.e: current rerseves, and headroom.....Nothing to do with the issues raised in this thread....i.e: unmeasurable, but audible differences between units.....which have consistently been shown to be wholly imaginary.
 

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