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Old 21st May 2003, 02:01 PM   #1171
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Quote:
Originally posted by AKSA
Further, it is the combination of phase shift and group delay which creates harmonics,
Sounds almost like a comb filter made from a delay line??? Sort of. The filter notches are like the harmonics. I imagine group delay in a feedback situation comparable to when you aim a video camera at a monitor that is displaying the image the camera is looking at. You get many pictures within pictures until finally it looses it's mind or suchlike. Soooo, group delay and feedback huh? For a source follower the feedback path is into the source lead so as to subtract from the gate-source voltage. Is there likely to be less group delay from a source follower than with a common source?
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Old 21st May 2003, 02:25 PM   #1172
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Talking nw is back!

Christopher,
I see you've read all the notes on this thread but you clearly jumped on some things I said.
I've done plenty of blind tests over the years and I can detect differences between gear, cables, etc.
I don't see what's the point.
That's what differentiates some of us in this thread to others.
Some of us (including me) think it's not possible that in a blind test you could go wrong in detecting where's de Bryston amp and where's the crappy Onkyo AV amp.
Anyway, what you claim is impossible.
With a schematic in your hand and the basic specifications of an amp and speakers you won't go anywhere.
There are so many variants you don't know...
Would you just be happy in knowing just the sensitivity, average impedance and power handling of a pair of speakers?
That's what the brands tell you, and nothing more.
You won't go anywhere.
And as for the amp, passive component quality and circuit design
is very important, and you won't go anywhere with a schematic and some basic specifications in your hand.
I actually think you changed your name and registered again.
In fact, I think you are nw_avphile, who completely desappeared for the other side of the moon.


note:
"There's no dark side of the moon.
Matter of fact, it's all black".
Roger Waters
 
Old 21st May 2003, 05:04 PM   #1173
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What I'd like to know, and it might take a painful degree of honesty, is under precisely what circumstances you all have heard differences between various audio components.

For me, a thoroughly scientific and convincing procedure for demonstrating the difference between, say, capacitors, would be:

- build two identical amplifiers
- blind listening test on both amps to check that they sound the same
- change the caps in one amplifier
- blind listening test on both amps to determine if there are any changes

(Ideally, the first and second tests should be done in an order unknown to the listener, to make sure they don't know whether to "listen for differences" or not).


Anyway, my main point is that I've never done anything like the above, and few others have either. I've done the usual non-blind before-and-after comparisons, and sometimes I'm in no doubt I've heard an improvement, but I don't expect other people to be convinced by this, especially if they don't know how I arrived at my conclusions.

So I'd love to know, when people post that a particular component sounds better than another, what listening methodology was used. Purely out of intellectual curiousity - no personal criticism is implied.

Cheers
IH
 
Old 21st May 2003, 05:23 PM   #1174
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Default Re: Re: don't cry for me

Quote:
Originally posted by IanHarvey
I've never heard anybody doubt that a 3000 pair of speakers can't be told apart from 300 ones.

In these days price is not a good indicator... i have heard 300 ones that are definetly better than 3000 ones.

dave
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Old 21st May 2003, 05:28 PM   #1175
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Default Re: Re: Re: don't cry for me

Quote:
Originally posted by planet10



In these days price is not a good indicator... i have heard 300 ones that are definetly better than 3000 ones.
Yes...i agree with you..the price only gives you the expertise in marketing of the company that trade them...
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Old 21st May 2003, 09:32 PM   #1176
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Default NW's not the only one

Fred seems to have disappeared too. And no, I'm not NW.

I must say I'm loving the feedback discussion, I wish I could participate but for now I'll just take notes.

Yes, Carlos, I read the entire thread, I made that clear in my first post. And the examples you have given of blind tests were not in fact blind tests at all. But, once again you're talking about something different. I'm not saying you can tell how a speaker will sound from the specs, I'm saying that if you look at the plots, you can tell if it will be a tough load or not. And if you look at the architecture of an amp(not me, I don't have that skill) you should have a pretty good idea of what kind of load it will have trouble with.

I think you were eluding to the idea that if you have two amps with similar architecture and specs one may sound great and the other awfull when driving the same speakers, I just can't accept that.

SY makes a good point that to really know for sure you need to measure it. And for speaker/amp matching, you'll have a hard time convincing me that a listening test will tell you more than measurements.

Really there are some things that measureing can relate so well, but those who want 'ears' to be the final judge seem to ignore this. Take 2 class A mosfet amps, 1 is rated at 20W and the other at 200W. Which one would be a bad match with some 84db speakers? Do you think that listening is likely to change that? Obvious numbers with obvious meaning. The more you understand about the architecture and the numbers, the more you will know. Eventually, you'll know which speaker/amp combos just arent' good, without ever hooking up a lead. And if you are going to make public judgements about the sound by listening, you should most certainly do it blind.

Quote:
Some of us (including me) think it's not possible that in a blind test you could go wrong in detecting where's de Bryston amp and where's the crappy Onkyo AV amp
You may think that all you want Carlos, but in order to have any credibility you have to prove it. The owner of Sunshine Audio thought he could, the guys at Stereophile thought they could, NW's buddy thought he could. But when they actually tried it, they couldn't. Until you actually do it, properly thinking it is just an opinion. And can somebody please tell me where to find a little happy face beating a dead horse?

Chris
 
Old 21st May 2003, 10:14 PM   #1177
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Default BLIND AND DEAF.

Hi,

Quote:
Take 2 class A mosfet amps, 1 is rated at 20W and the other at 200W. Which one would be a bad match with some 84db speakers?
Not necessarily either one of them....
I do give the 20W amp a better chance for excellence though.

Cheers,
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Old 21st May 2003, 11:08 PM   #1178
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Default Re: BLIND AND DEAF.

Quote:
Originally posted by fdegrove
Not necessarily either one of them....
True. Especially if the 84dB speakers are headphones.

84dB and 20 watts wouldn't necessarily be a bad combination in a nearfield scenario. I don't know if you caught the mention of the little "Nuetrino" speakers mr_ro_co mentioned in the Sun Microsystems Gainclone thread, but they're actually a bit less than 84dB and I was driving them with less than 20 watts and was getting very good results.

No, you're not going to fill any sizeable room with 20 watts and 84dB, but power and sensitivity are relative and it doesn't pay to make sweeping generalizations.

Quote:
I do give the 20W amp a better chance for excellence though.
Yup. And by the time you're up to actually USING those 200 watts, your speakers are going to be in thermal compression hell.

se
 
Old 21st May 2003, 11:33 PM   #1179
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Default WOW...

Hi,

Quote:
Yup. And by the time you're up to actually USING those 200 watts, your speakers are going to be in thermal compression hell.
On a day to day basis the average usage on Joe average speakies is 1W at most.

We could do the math on that too if there's any interest, right Steve?

Misconceptions reign...


P.S. I don't like headphones...but I miss my Lambdas though...
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Old 21st May 2003, 11:47 PM   #1180
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Default Blind Melon Chitlin

"Fred seems to have disappeared too."

You wish I bet! I am busy explaining voltage regulators to "know it all"s and insulting the worst offender in Japanese.

I see these thread as veered into philosophical discussions of phase margin as well. I think it deserves it's own thread. How about "Phase Margin for Poets"?


Uhh Ya!
Fred
 

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