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Old 23rd March 2003, 02:27 PM   #101
Cobra2 is offline Cobra2  Norway
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Default Studios

I know of (at least two) (small) studios that use more "unobtainium" equipment than most people would care to dream about,
-and I know an old scool-mate wich is studio-engineer/technician, and is an audiophile....

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Old 23rd March 2003, 02:30 PM   #102
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How can we talk about building a neutral sounding amplifier, when every part being used imposes it's own sonic signature on the sound. So we are dealing here not only with a original recording, but also with a coloration of all the parts used to reproduce that recording. We wil never be able to create perfectly transparent amplifier. We can only try to combine the parts the best we can to achieve a certain sonic effect. If the amp is used for music reproduction, why not choose the parts which actually sound like real music?

When listening to an amp you are also listening to interconnects and speaker cables. I changed one resistor in a feedback loop of my amp and I had to use different cables from PS to achieve so called more "neutral" sound again. But how much neutral is it? Who is there to judge, when speakers and othe cables are interfeering?

I'm noticing that mechanical construction and resonances control in a chassiss itself, make sometimes much bigger difference than the whole electronic part of the amp. How can you measure that and what defines your choices? I just changed the insulating pad under IC chip and the sound changed.

Since I started production of my own amps, I'm in a position where I can built exactly same amps with only minor change to be tested. Even a short wiring (2") from PS connector to a chip influences sound in a big way.It actually makes an amp or breakes it. And the choices are many, even when talking about very simple design.

The only real judgement comes from a listener and he tells you what he likes. He doesn't have any measuring equipment, except for a set of two ears and they came in a quite a big variety
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Old 23rd March 2003, 03:17 PM   #103
Cobra2 is offline Cobra2  Norway
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Default And then there is that subjective experience...

It's almost like discussing food or wine....

(I have just burned my pasta-sauce....)

Arne K
 
Old 23rd March 2003, 03:20 PM   #104
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Default New words?

"unobtainium"

I love this word. Who coined it ?

This whole businesss of audio is so hazy that the pursuit of the 'ultimate sound' will last as long as humans will on Mother Earth.
No one will ever agree to any one set of criteria - after all we are Humans - and we always agree to disagree.

Very clearly seen on this thread !

Great - it will keep every one on this forum occupied with audio improvements , busy with the business of achieving the nebulous end all through this material life.
Just remember to keep your sense of humour and respect other people's point of view - you don't have to agree to it.

It keeps us away from all the other crap in life.
Keep having fun.
Cheers.
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Old 23rd March 2003, 03:20 PM   #105
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Default He is starting to catch on........

Quote:
Originally posted by Peter Daniel
How can we talk about building a neutral sounding amplifier, when every part being used imposes it's own sonic signature on the sound. So we are dealing here not only with a original recording, but also with a coloration of all the parts used to reproduce that recording. We wil never be able to create perfectly transparent amplifier. We can only try to combine the parts the best we can to achieve a certain sonic effect. If the amp is used for music reproduction, why not choose the parts which actually sound like real music?

That is what makes this an art. There is a constant balance between tonal balance and resolution. The more attention to the design and efforts to improve an amplifier, the more these effects become noticable. The increased neutrality and resolution of an amplifier modification or new design reveals other short comings in preamp, source and cabling. Often the reduced masking reveals other colorations and problems that can start to annoy you that go unnoticed with an amplifier of less resolution. It is kind of like peeling an onion. There always seems to be another layer. What comes with this is hearing further into the music. The sense of timing, pitch, subtle details that differentiate really good musicians from average. One of the things I really notice is pitch and small changes in it as singers search for the note. Getting further into the music is the whole point of all this. It is not about how loud a system will play, how deep the bass goes, or how detailed it sounds. It's about the subtle aspects of music and how close the system brings you to what the musicians are doing.
Their choices in phrasing. The tempos they pick. The mirroring of vocal lines by instrument parts. The emotion, intent, skills, and technique of the artist. If the system doesn't approach these things in the music, you mind as well turn it of and go do something else.
 
Old 23rd March 2003, 03:31 PM   #106
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Default Re: He is starting to catch on........

Quote:
Originally posted by Fred Dieckmann


Their choices in phrasing. The tempos they pick. The mirroring of vocal lines by instrument parts. The emotion, intent, skills, and technique of the artist. If the system doesn't approach these things in the music, you mind as well turn it of and go do something else.
When I'm beginning to sense the emotions of the performers, I know I'm on a right path with my design.

I'm sorry, but I never noticed it with an average $300 asian integrated. And I have quite a nice collection of them from a by-gone era, but mostly because of the looks.
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Old 23rd March 2003, 03:32 PM   #107
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Quote:
If the amp is used for music reproduction, why not
choose the parts which actually sound like real music?
Like musicans pick their flavour of instruments....

Arne K
 
Old 23rd March 2003, 03:35 PM   #108
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Default Re: New words?

Quote:
Originally posted by ashok


Great - it will keep every one on this forum occupied with audio improvements , busy with the business of achieving the nebulous end all through this material life.
And this is it. Because it is material, the quest for perfection will never end, and also, our awarness is growing so we are becoming more demanding. Isn't it nice?
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Old 23rd March 2003, 03:42 PM   #109
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Default In Tears.

Hi,

Very well put, Fred.

The choice of components for a given design is a very delicate process.
Indeed, as you said so eloquently, it is like peeling away layers of colourations masking the music.

While I know of no single component that is absolutely transparent to the source, some do come very close.
Some designers use brand X components all thoughout and that inevitably gives a sonic flavour to the product, a signature they would call it.
To my ears that is still a colouration and is better avoided even though lots of people lke certain flavours more than others.
The design goal one should set for one self IMHO should be one of utter transparency.

Often when I have people try out some of the I/C and speakercables I designed years ago they say they don't like them.
I know why...they are too transparent for their own good and all of a sudden these people more clearly hear the shortcomings of their own system.
It often takes them a while to come to terms with that...no one likes to admit their own deficiency.

Cheers,
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Old 23rd March 2003, 03:47 PM   #110
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How do you get a cable to be transparent? Indium Tin Oxide?
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