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Old 18th April 2003, 11:41 PM   #1041
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Default What?

So in effect you are saying that it sounds different if I can see which amplifier is being listened to.
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Old 18th April 2003, 11:51 PM   #1042
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Default Re: What?

Quote:
Originally posted by olsonsys
So in effect you are saying that it sounds different if I can see which amplifier is being listened to.
No, I'm saying it may sound different when you don't have to identify what you are listening to.
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Old 18th April 2003, 11:55 PM   #1043
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Default I think I'm getting it.

So the identification process degrades your ability to hear.
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Old 18th April 2003, 11:59 PM   #1044
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Unhappy SORRY ..... Long Post !!

Quote:
Peter D writes: What I'd like to agree on, is that although two amps may seem to sound the same in a blind test to a person, they might not sound the same in subjective environment, the one we are accustomed to in our usual way of listening and this should be treated as "real" reality, more important than just aesthetics. This might not appeal to everybody and of course is not the same to everybody, but in some ways it's real.
The problem with a "lumped parameter model" is that it has been badly abused in the past, and this was much of the incentive NW had to create this thread in the first place.

The point being that if we separate out what is "truly audible difference" (and this relates to the individual in question - not someone else in another location), then we can accurately assign importance to all of the "other factors".

The reason I have been at pains not to say person x, y or z can or cannot hear A vs B is I don't want to muddy discussion of the method. I believe NW made a fatal mistake when he infered certain people would or would not be able to hear differences between specific products. This had the very predictable result of reducing much of the thread content to "4 year old sand-pit level" argument.

The placebo-effect is a very real thing. Not all people are subject to it to the same degree, but it IS real.

People's ability to discriminate varies, their inate hearing thresholds vary, etc, etc. Despite all of these differences the method remains valid because it simply allows better description of the components of our global perception. We know how much is "audibly discernable", the rest making-up the total "package".

I took a shot at Pan for this reason. It doesn't matter what he can or cannot hear. I don't care if he can hear me typing in Oz from Sweden. This is actually near irrelevant to a discussion of the merits of the process/method.

When assessing the merits of a "method of assessment" we should be concerned with discrimination (of the method, not an individual), reproducibility, inter-rater reliability, flexibility, usability, etc. Personal anecdotes do not make a scientific argument.

The biggest problem with blind testing (IMO) is in fact its "usability". By this I mean it is actually very difficult to set-up accurately and for most of us impractical.

The question was, is this a valid method ..... to which I say, YES. Of course, you may personally choose whatever you like at the end of the day.

cheers
mark
 
Old 18th April 2003, 11:59 PM   #1045
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Default So the identification process degrades your ability to hear.

That could be one assumption. I think everybody knows the feeling of psychological tension and the pressure of making the right choice when the prize is big

Somebody who obsrves that from a side is working in totally differnt frame of mind. And our mind can be the worst enemy, sometimes.
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Old 19th April 2003, 12:09 AM   #1046
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Default THE LISTENING ENVIRONMENT.

Hi,

Quote:
What I'd like to agree on, is that although two amps may seem to sound the same in a blind test to a person, they might not sound the same in subjective environment, the one we are accustomed to in our usual way of listening and this should be treated as "real" reality, more important than just aesthetics.
Very good point Peter.

It actually supports the psychoacoustic theory to a great extent in that in the case of a home comparison of two amps (or whatever) you actually have adapted over time to that particular environment.

The outcome of your judgement may have been different in an unknown environment, maybe not.

The key is, IMHO, that when attending a listening test in a room with unfamiliar acoustics to our brain things can get rather tricky.

This may well explain the odd outcome of blind listening testing when participating in said tests where you actually "know" from experience in your own familiar environment that product X or Y under test sounds quite different at your own listening place yet hardly distinguishable under unknown acoustical environment testing circumstances.

I feel the brain needs time to adapt to the acoustics of the new environment and this factor alone may be a great contributor to the " falsification" of the test.

Maybe there's no truth at all in what is said here either but it makes sense to me.

Cheers,
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Old 19th April 2003, 12:16 AM   #1047
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Default AH...AT LONG LAST.

Hi,

Quote:
I believe NW made a fatal mistake when he infered certain people would or would not be able to hear differences between specific products. This had the very predictable result of reducing much of the thread content to "4 year old sand-pit level" argument.
Absolutely...and if you follow the evolvements you actually get remarks such as: But?...it seems that actually you do agree here???

Someone shot himself in the foot and now you've got an endless thread as the endresult.

Not that I'm not enjoyng it....
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Old 19th April 2003, 12:22 AM   #1048
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Default Which sounds better ....

Quote:
So in effect you are saying that it sounds different if I can see which amplifier is being listened to.
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Which one sounds better?
There is actually nothing wrong with this, so long as you know why you appreciate A more than B.

I built an Aleph4 and Aleph5. I "enjoy" the later more because I spent more time and care in it's manufacture, it looks better (to me) and I can convince myself it actually sounds better.

Could I tell them apart reliably blinded. Don't know, haven't tried, but I strongly suspect not.

Is this a problem and do I need to do blind testing ...... clearly NO!

OK, lets take another example .........

I start a company, "Perfect Pitch Pyramids. We manufacture audiophile grade pyramid shields for your hifi. There is a clear problem with the Earth's magnetic field causing polarisation of the electron rotational spin in the components of your stereo and resulting in half-wave harmonic distortion which degrades the signal and is clearly audible to the most discerning ears ......
For an additional consultancy fee we will install the pyramid, aligning it with the Earth's true magnetic axis in your location so you may obtain full benefit from your pyramid......
Comes in standard form or the delux model with the blue LED light bathing your stereo and removing the noise of the background ambient light.
Price on application ..... how much do you have??"

Now, we all know I could probably sell quite a few of these.

Should we (the audio community) subject this to blind testing, or should we believe the hifi mag reviewer, who I took out to very expensive lunch yesterday?

regards
mark
 
Old 19th April 2003, 12:27 AM   #1049
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Default Re: Which sounds better ....

Quote:
Originally posted by mefinnis

Should we (the audio community) subject this to blind testing, or should we believe the hifi mag reviewer, who I took out to very expensive lunch yesterday?

If after 5 years, you would still be in business selling pyramids, I would suspect there must be something to them and maybe even buy one (but of course on a used market).
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Old 19th April 2003, 12:34 AM   #1050
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Default P-P-Pyramid ....

Quote:
If after 5 years, you would still be in business selling pyramids, I would suspect there must be something to them and maybe even buy one (but of course on a used market).
Nope, you still couldn't afford one and I'm certainly not putting the plans on the web for you DIY hackers ..... you would only do it incorrectly and sully the good name of my company .....

mark
 

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